German WW1 M15 Stick Grenade

[nzef1940]

Be interesting to hear from the Canadian again?

[Hans K.]

you're welcome,

No other comments on authenticity then ?

Regards Nick

The handles on yours are all the later 3rd model?? 1916 (I forget the official German name) with the end caps, yet they have the same 5 1/2 Secunden stamp as the early 1st model stick. I'm not by any stretch of the imagination an authority or even a serious grenade collector, but I have seen a few originals and also a great many more with refurbished handles over the years. In all honesty, based on these pictures, I wouldn't want to own any of these "Secunden" grenades shown in either of your posts. You clearly must know something I don't in order to be confident that they're good.

Hans

[nzef1940]

Why comment then if your not a grenade collector or have any specialist knowledge about them...

[Hans K.]

Why comment then if your not a grenade collector or have any specialist knowledge about them...

You asked for opinions and I know enough about them to give you mine.

[Hans K.]

Nice original Model 15,,, the Secunden is correct
so is the font used, this is period to the year.

SEK was used on an abbreviation on most sticks, also must not forget that there were many manufacturers of the handles and cans, so there would be variations .
This is why in 1916/17 it was standardised to the Model 1917 variant, the forerunner to the M24 Model.


Hope this helps ?

Regards Nick .

I realize I'm repeating myself, but you claimed that the misspelled "Secunden" and the font used on the stick are period to the year. The year in question is 1915. Yet the grenades you show as evidence all have a later model 1916 stick - 2 models later in fact. How is this period to the year?

Edit: I've already acknowledged the fact that these "secunden" handles actually existed by posting an example I found on another forum, to my astonishment. It's in thread #32 and it's an early 1915 stick. I'm fairly certain it's good anyway. I can't say that about the one that started this thread. I haven't seen any other examples aside from Nick's table full of 1916 models and I'm surprised no-one else has one to post. It would be nice to get to the bottom of this.

[jeeeensy]

Ill post more piccs later,,,, this will help provide the necessary info to clear up the issue.

[Hans K.]

Thanks Nick.

[jeeeensy]

The handles on yours are all the later 3rd model?? 1916 (I forget the official German name) with the end caps, yet they have the same 5 1/2 Secunden stamp as the early 1st model stick. I'm not by any stretch of the imagination an authority or even a serious grenade collector, but I have seen a few originals and also a great many more with refurbished handles over the years. In all honesty, based on these pictures, I wouldn't want to own any of these "Secunden" grenades shown in either of your posts. You clearly must know something I don't in order to be confident that they're good.

Hans

OK here goes.....

Yes the ones I posted are third model ( Wilhelm model is the terminology for them )

Well actually they're not the third model, they are a mixture or the second model and third model.

in the following images you will see the difference between them, when these are restored by diggers or who ever, they over look one crucial aspect on them.
you'll see this soon, the devil is in the detail.

Original post

1st Model Ball with cord and a paper tape was used, simple design ( 1915 )


Detailed in the piccs below on following,

2nd Model ( 1916 ) had a shallow recess in bottom of stick and a half moon shaped piece of wood was attached to the cord to help pull the cord. This has a waxed paper wrap over it and up the stick a little way to keep it dry
( the porcelain bead does not fit in this recess) Top stick in image.



3rd Model ( 1916 ) deeper recess in bottom of handle and a porcelain bead added to the pull cord. This had the metal screw thread and cap to keep it dry
( the deeper recess enables the bead to fit correctly in the stick ) Bottom Stick in image.

In the following images you'll see top 2 stick look the same,, nope!

Second picc you see the difference in the recces in the bottom of them

Third picc the bead added for reference to the depth of the recess.

All these handles are 100% original, there no doubt on that, same the original thread, that is also 100% original.

So in reply to your statement,
"You clearly must know something I don't in order to be confident that they're good "

Yup think I do,,, hope this helps to clarify some of the finer points on mod 15 St Hgr's gents ?

[jeeeensy]

Sticks picc # 1

[jeeeensy]

Sticks picc #2

[jeeeensy]

Stick picc # 3

[nzef1940]

Further comments post Nicks update?

You asked for opinions and I know enough about them to give you mine.

[Hans K.]

Nick,
Thank you very much for your effort at clarifying your position. You clearly believe that yours are 100% original. I still don't understand what makes you confident that these are genuine, but you are the happy owner of these, not me. I just wanted to get the the bottom of things.

I guess this comes down to whether or not you believe that original examples of these Secunden stamped sticks exist. I haven't seen a single one I'd feel comfortable owning so far. In fact, finding anything on the maker or comparable original examples has turned up virtually nothing. The only other examples I could find online were repros or part of heavily restored ground dug grenades with refurbished sticks. Two are shown below.

If you know of (or anyone else knows of) actual original examples in museums or elsewhere please share them.

[nzef1940]

Thanks for your efforts and sharing your knowledge Nick, much appreciated.

You can lead a horse to water...

[jeeeensy]

Nick,
Thank you very much for your effort at clarifying your position. You clearly believe that yours are 100% original. I still don't understand what makes you confident that these are genuine, but you are the happy owner of these, not me. I just wanted to get the the bottom of things.

I guess this comes down to whether or not you believe that original examples of these Secunden stamped sticks exist. I haven't seen a single one I'd feel comfortable owning so far. In fact, finding anything on the maker or comparable original examples has turned up virtually nothing. The only other examples I could find online were repros or part of heavily restored ground dug grenades with refurbished sticks. Two are shown below.

If you know of (or anyone else knows of) actual original examples in museums or elsewhere please share them.

Ok Take 2 #

I didn't want to undertake open heart surgery on one of the sticks, so instead I carried a small day op. Patient survived and is doing well .

So,,, Please look closely at the following images have a little think about it!

I managed to dig out the area of the delay tube and expose a as much as I wanted to, to prove it is still in place, therefore making the stick period and not a repro like you are adamant it is.

So now you can see that the fuse is STILL in place, this been there since in was made.

Most of the ones I have are ALL the same with fuses, both model 2 and the model 3 type, All original.

You kindly posted two pic's in your last post of you what you think is a repro.
The one on the left is not repro however the one on the right is. ( that's the one from the Canadian War Museum) I think you will find this was made recently.

Also you will notice the obvious spelling mistake on it, this was more than likely done by the maker so is could not be passed as original, I little bit of fettling and it would pass of as original in the wrong hands, there may be more of these out there , hence you are getting confused a little. Don't worry about it, we all get tunnel vision and can't see the woods for the trees, sometimes

in response you your question " I still don't understand what makes you confident that these are genuine, but you are the happy owner of these "
With well over a few hundred German Stick Grenades in the collection ranging from WW1 to end WW2 stone minters and full compliments of boxes, yep, I think I feel comfortable owning these , and happy too


So with the "proof in the pudding" as they say, you know have all the proof you need to put your mind at rest about these and the originality of them.

Any comments are all ways welcome, we never to old to learn something new


p.s ,, keep a look out for Bergflaks update, just because it's not in a museum, does not mean it does not exist!!!!!