Ground dug

[Eric K.]

Found these not to long ago The two big rounds on the left are very well marked ,The one with the silver flat tip is marked 2cm kpfz.zerl.fq.bzz 1943 then it has the heer eagle and swas.The top three are strange really fat and short any ideas?

[Ostmark]

This 2cm rounds can blow you up in pieces if this rounds are not inert ...
The 2 cm rounds are really dangerous in handling!!!!!!!!!!

The rounds on the right side looks like 50BMG, the coloured bullet tips means
also be carefull, and inform you whats inside ...

The top three are maybe russian or french rifle ammo

[Ostmark]

Check this site for more info

http://www.wk2ammo.com

[Eric K.]

Thanks for the warning! We already got rid of them and we were VERY careful in handling them.
Eric

[EKman]

Imagine the surprise on the face of some poor French farmer as his plow strikes one of these rounds

[Zünder]

Clockwise:

-french 8 mm Lebel.

- 12,7x 99 (.50) BMG, on the left AP, on the right Incendiary (i think).

- group of 2 7,9 x 57 IS and 2 .30-06 rounds.

- fuze, unknown, but it looks like the upper part of an american M57.

- 2 cm mg 151/20 AP round (probably AP.I., they are the most common), with belt still on it.

- last one looks like a 2 cm MG204 HE round, which would be a surpise, since these are very rare.


Guy's don't dig this stuff up, especially if you have to ask what they are...

[Eric K.]

Thanks
Not asking just showing (Except the top 3)
Eric

[Zünder]

@Flieger: got any dimensions and headstamps of the 2 cm MG204 round ?

[Eric K.]

Its marked 2cm kpfz.zerl.fq.bzz 1943 and no doubt that its an HE round.Found it among a knocked out tank thats in pretty bad shape not much left but some road wheels and big hunks of metal.Looks like a fairly heavy arty barrage hit the area, the craters are shallow now but theres no doubt as to what they are.Its In Idar-Oberstein and next time i go out I'll try and remember the camera theres some fox holes and the dug out position the tanks in. You need a little imagination when you first see it but its pretty obvious after you look around a bit.
Eric

[mietek]

Hi.

Could you write markings what are on Lebel ammo?

mietek

PS 14,5 Russian AT and smaller ammo are quite safe, other is better not to touch.

[Eric K.]

Sorry, got rid of all the ammo but as i can remember the rim had a couple slashes with what looked like a mobius strip(??) infinity sign

Eric.

[Zünder]

@Mietek: "PS 14,5 Russian AT and smaller ammo are quite safe, other is better not to touch." ?!

Ever heard of german 7,9 mm x 57 IS B-Patronen ?
Or the russian 7,62x54r ZR round ?
Those will easily take you're hand off if not handled properly !

Or the russian 14,5 x 114 MDZ HE round ?

That one will take more then just you're hand...

Unless the finder/buyer knows what he's looking at, there's no way to tell them apart.

[mietek]

Hi Zünder

Yes I know, same as German 13mm aircraft ammo, but did I write in my post about not carefull handling of ammo?
These bullets what you mention are not common.
It also depend where you find ammo, if it's MG nest- sure you need to be carefull, except normal ammo can be with white phosphorus. Similar is on old airfields

(I think Erics findings are from airfield used by Germans (20mm+Lebel+Mauzer) than by Allies(303, 12,7)).

Of course I don't take full ammo home, but with carefull handling it is possible to take small ammo after finding, than check place around - to be sure that in the same area are not other things and at the end put ammo beck in to the ground.
For example in the same hole I found - two 9mm Para German ammo and 17 century coin, or ww1 mosin + post war coins. Other case - if part of uniform was abandoned, in the pockets could be ammo, coins, etc. - so all area schould be checked.

I search with metal detector more than 7 years. I'm always very carefull. German ammo not always have color codes on the bottom, so it's most suspicius. Lebel, Mannlicher- Carcano, PPSh, 8mm Mannlicher (ww1) - I have seen only metal bullets, in my opinon quite safe stuff. 14,5 Russian - are you sure that MDZ was used during ww2?
German 13, 15, 20mm are VERY dangerous - both flak (20mm) and aircraft.

I often help to identify different findings on Polish metal detecting forum.
From my experience people have problem to recognise:
rifle grenades, every 3-4 months somebody ask "what is this?", but it's very common finding:
http://inert-ord.net/ger03a/gerrg2/index.html
italian grenades (red color is not common for military equipement) - they are not often on East front, but I found few.
http://www.comandosupremo.com/Grenades.html
Sometimes also AT-mine aluminium fuses, looks for somebody as a part of machinery, or even aircraft: http://www.dpage.dial.pipex.com/034-06.jpg

Actually everybody who search with metal detector should know that it's risky, same as diving, climbing and other sports, but I heard only about one death accident during searching. Genarally, more experience and knowledge=safer hobby , forums like this are very helpfull to know more about ww2 stuff.

Best regards and great findings for all military archeologists

mietek

[Zünder]

I'm sure you're advice is well meant, but it's dangerous nevertheless..

Ammunition is such a complex topic, for every safe round, there are dozens of lethal ones, and vice versa.
13, 15 mm and 2 cm shells are dangerous, but there are also shells that aren't, but after 60 years of corrosion it will be pretty difficult to tell the difference.

Let's face it, 90 % of all collectors know almost nothing about ammunition, but a large percentage (certainly in europe) use a metaldetector.
They will not know the difference between the different kinds of ammo, but they will come across it.

And i suspect quit a few will think all small caliber and 14,5 mm AP ammo are quit safe after reading you're message.
Problem is after 30 years underground, they won't be able to tell the difference between a 14,5 MDZ (post war prod. by the way) and a B 32 or B41, and since they read on the internet 14,5 mm ammo is quit harmless, why not take it home ?

And we haven't even begun to talk about the effects of corrosion on rounds, about the chemical desintragtion of explosives (french ww1 ammo has become extremely sensitive by now), or the reaction of explosives to the metal of the shell.
Nor that it is illegal to dig for ammo, or/and take it home..

Leave the ammo to the EOD, they are the trained proffesionals, and still a few get killed every year...

[mietek]

Hi Zunder

I'm totally agree that it can be dangerous, always when dealing with ammo everybody should be carefull.

True, many people don't have even basic knowledge about this subject, howewer to know all it is nearly impossible. On East front were used all types of weapon and ammo from whole Europe.

In most cases, as you wrote, corrosion make impossible to recognise rounds. Thats the reason not to touch 20mm and bigger.
You are right, my mistake, I forgot about post-war 14,5mm, however most popular are AT rounds, it could be possible to find MDZ (post war training areas, ex-russian bases?). Only way te recognise them it's to read manufacturing year on the bottom.

Artillery rounds it's other story, best will be just not to find them, but it's impossible. There is plenty of them everywhere. I never dig them out and it's the best way to survive. Fortunatey in my area were never used shells filled by gas, I cannot even imagine to search on battelfield full of such dangerous stuff.

Best regards

mietek

PS Today on the forum again was the question "what is this: http://www.odkrywca-online.com/picsforum5/1_copy64.jpg ?"
Getting better, people first take the picture, than ask, not take home just after finding.