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    #1

    Soviet M1936 82mm Mortar

    Hi,
    I wonder if anyone has some good clear photos of the Soviet WW2 mortar PM36-82 otherwise referred to as 82mm M1936. I am particularly interested in this capture’ mortar which was in use by the Finnish Defence Forces until very recently and known by them as the 82mm KRH36 RT. This is the first Soviet 82mm mortar and I understand that it was a direct copy of the 81mm Brandt Mle. 27/31. Any clear photos showing details of this mortar such as base-plate, bipod or Sights would be very useful. There is a photo of it on the Jaegar Platoon website and one or two fuzzy ones elsewhere on the internet but that seems to be it.
    Draoich
    Tags: None
    #2
    It is actually 82-BM-36, as it was intended for battalion level (82 mm Battalion Minomet obr 1936 g, or something close to that depending on translittering system used).

    It is indeed a very close relative to Stokes-Brant Mle 1927/31, as Soviets had purchased a licence for that in mid 30s. Baseplate and bipod are same on both, while BM has a longer tube. I also think that the Soviets used their own sight right from the start, but I must check this out.

    In 82-BM-37 Soviets changed the rectangular baseplate to a round one, and this became a hallmark of all Soviet mortars.

    Finnish Army called captured 82-BM-36s normally just 82 mm KRH/36s. These were fitted with some mods, most notably the sight base was fitted with a Stokes-style dovetail to accept a standard Finnish optical mortarsight. 82 KRH/36 RT was the last version to see use in Finland and this was intended to be used in fortified close defence positions with coastal artillery (RT as in RannikkoTykistö - Coastal Artillery).

    I'll try to dig out some pics, as I own both original S-B Mle 1927/31 and 82-BM-36.

    Comment

      #3
      Finnish Sights for 82mm KRH 36 Mortar

      Interesting information although I understand that the Soviets merely copied the Brandt Mle 27/31 rather than manufactured it under licence. This type of design piracy was common in the 1930's. Could you provide a lead or reference to the information that they bought a licence from Brandt as this would be very useful information?
      I look forward to your photos. You are very fortunate to have both an 81mm Mle 27/31 and an 82mm KRH 36. Is your Mle 27/31 one of the mortars produced by Tampella for Brandt?
      I note your reference to the Stokes style dove-tail for attachment of the Sights.
      The dove-tail should probably be referred to as the Brandt style, particularly as Brandt introduced it. The Stokes mortar never had a Sight attachment.
      Has your 82mm KRH36 got a Brandt type dove-tail welded on over a slightly smaller Soviet style dove-tail? The 82mm M1936 Soviet morters had a dove-tail in the Brandt style but just slightly smaller!
      The Finnish Sight for the KRH 36 82mm mortar is unlike all other Brandt type Sights as it copies Soviet practice in being set at 90 Degrees to the Tube unlike Brandt Sights which are set at 45 Degrees included angle to the Tube.
      Draoich

      Comment

        #4
        Draoich,

        Thanks for correcting - it was indeed the Brandt type dove-tail I meant.

        I can't recall the reference for the license claim, but will look it up. I'm rather positive about that, as on the contrary to what is commonly believed, Soviets commonly purchased production rights for foreign defense materiel during the 1930s.

        Some of these fully licenced weapon systems include a 37 mm tank and antitank gun (upgraded later to 45 mm) and a 76 mm AA-gun from Rheinmetall, motorcycle from BMW (R71 w/ sidecar) and various wheeled and tracked vehicles from US and UK.

        Anyway, your post made it very clear that I had neglected playing with my mortars for some years now. So I went down to my basement and had some quality time with them Pics unfortunately will have to wait for the daylight.

        But let's take a re-start:

        As far as I know and see from the markings, my Mle 1927/31 is a genuine Brandt-made mortar. It as a standard Brandt type dovetail set in 45 degrees to the tube. For this I have two original 6400 mils Brandt collimator sights and a standard m/35 style Tampella made Finnish 6000 mils optical mortar sight.

        My 82-BM-36 has indeed a Brandt type dove-tail welded on over a slightly smaller Soviet style dove-tail, but still set in 90 degrees to the tube. For this gun I don't seem to have any sight, or have misplaced it/them.

        Br, Aktivisti

        PS. I also have a very nice and rather rare Finnish Tampella m/33 type mortar sight. Collimator, all brass, narrow dove-tail but set for a 45 degrees setup. I recall that only about 100 of these were made. Unfortunately finding an original m/33 mortar is also "somewhat" hard...
        Last edited by Aktivisti; 06-12-2011, 05:58 PM.

        Comment

          #5
          Exact calibre of Soviet 82mm mortar?

          Aktivisti,
          I wonder if you could answer a query for me. What is the exact calibre of the Soviet 82mm mortar? I assume it is 82.4mm because some Soviet mortar rounds have a diameter of 82.1mm. I would measure this myself but 82mm mortars are non-existant here and, although I can get some good information from static displays in mainland European museums, they do not allow visitors to handle the goods!
          Also, you mentioned some reference material so I wonder if you could recomend some useful books on the subject of Soviet mortars. I have most of Ian Hoggs.
          Draoich

          Comment

            #6
            No problem.

            My 82-BB-36 seems to have a muzzle diameter of 82,0 mm. I repeated the measurement several times from various AOAs and with two rulers just to be safe.

            As a reference I also used the same caliper rulers on my Mle 27/31, where they repeatedly showed 81,4 mm/3,205". On a 7,88 mm bullet (miked) both showed 7,90 mm, so I'm pretty confident their accuracy is within +-0,05 mm.

            I'll try to check if I can find any reference to what are the normal tolerances for Soviet 82 mm.

            Regarding references, most of my info comes from war-time Finnish and Soviet manuals and post-war books dealing with Soviet materiel in general.

            I haven't read Hoggs newest Mortar book, but in general, I'm not that confident with his knowledge of Russian-Soviet weapons development.

            Comment

              #7
              Soviet 82mm mortar round actual calibre

              I should have checked rather than have relied on my memory. The correct maximum diameter for 82mm Soviet mortar rounds seems to be 82mm. These are post-war rounds. It is possible that the Soviet Union increased the actual barrel diameter for the BM-37-82 New Type mortar (i.e. post 1945). I wonder has anyone got the opportunity to measure a war-time Soviet 82mm mortar round or even the barrel diameter of the Model 1937 82mm mortar (new or old type)?

              It is also possible that the Finnish capture' 82mm mortars were re-barrelled at some stage after 1945 to 82mm exact, though I think that is unlikely because it might prevent use of Soviet 82mm mortar ammunition.
              Draoich

              Comment

                #8
                I'm rather sure that my 82 mm obr 1936 g. has an original barrel and its not re-lined.

                I seem to be unable to find any of my Soviet 82 mm manuals right now, but my Finnish Army mortar catalog (2ed) from 1941 has a nice drawing of Soviet O-832 (early six fin type) mortar bomb showing that it should have a diameter of 81,7 mm.

                Come to think of it, I actually should have one or two O-832s stored "somewhere". I have my 50 mm O-822 and O-822Sh right here at my desk, but lets see if I can locate those 82 mm ones

                Comment

                  #9
                  Sorry, this was an empty ticket from my part

                  I found the box I (at least think I) was looking for and there were no Soviet O-832s, but two apparently Hungarian 81 mm rounds (36/48 mm fuze) with wrong tail sections. They both measured to 80,7 mm.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    I've got one of these mortars
                    82 KRH / 36, serial number 1149
                    It has the number 12240 stamped below that.

                    I'm not a full member so can't post pictures I'm afraid so if you can get to me your email address I'll post the pictures.

                    It has on the bipod the welded larger dovetail bracket into the smaller original. I take it from that that the sights must be Finnish.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Krh 36 82mm mortar - Hurray Photos

                      Hi,
                      Thanks for the reply. I am in the same position in that I am not a full member either. I have sent you a private message with my email address. I look forward to the photos.
                      Draoich

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Differences between BM-36-82 Mortar and the following model BM-37-82

                        Hi,
                        I have made several attempts to contact Geoffw but I have no idea if these got through. Perhaps someone who owns one the 82mm 1936 Model' mortars could answer the following:
                        Is the firing pin in these installed in the same way as that of a Brandt Mle. 27/31 - by inserting it into a hole in the ball pivot and screwing it into place, or is it installed in the same way as that of the BM-37-82 - by removing the breech cup (it unscrews) and inserting the firing pin into a threaded socket in the base of the cup?
                        Also, are there any identifiable Soviet markings on the barrel of the 1936 model, particularly the breech cup?
                        Draoich

                        Comment

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