Marinehelferin jacket or not?

[djpool]

Lets take a look at the jacket I bought. On the surface it appears to be a standard commercial jacket (which it might be). The color appears to be black, however it’s not the deep black associated with let’s say a Panzer uniform. Here are a couple of comparisons placed against a Panzer tunic which has a KM eagle. To the naked eye all three items look black. You can see the slight blue tinge of the eagle if the light hits it just right.

There seems to be zero interest on this topic,but I'll keep trying to get some comments or answers. Anyway I've been trying to see if there's any method to determine if an item is Navy Blue or black. Evidently there's no sure way of determining if an item is dyed a deep navy blue. From what I've read many navies just dyed their items black (didn't fade as much) even though they state the items are navy blue. I've looked at a lot of KM uniforms and I can't distinguish between black or blue on many of them. Does anyone know if the KM substituted black for blue? Jim

[Wim D]

Hi Jim,

Yes there is interest but I can not help you unfortunately. The Schiffchen they used were dark blue, always thought that the uniforms they used were the same dark color.

Regards,
Wim.

[djpool]

Hi Jim,

Yes there is interest but I can not help you unfortunately. The Schiffchen they used were dark blue, always thought that the uniforms they used were the same dark color.

Regards,
Wim.

Hey Wim,

Thank you. Unfortunately trying to pursue the dark blue route seems to lead no where. There are so many shades of blue ranging from a medium blue to almost a black. I've looked at hundreds of pictures of KM uniforms/ insignia and while I can distinguish some blue in many of them; there are some that I swear are black. But I'm not a KM collector, so I'm not in a good position to know if they substituted black for navy blue like other navies did.

I tried to search the internet to see if there was a method to distinguish between black and dark navy blue. One site actually stated it can be difficult unless the clothing is labeled! Plus each individual can see colors differently which doesn't help. I can distinguish the lighter and medium shades of blue okay, but the darker shades cause me problems.

So thanks for the response. Regards Jim

[djpool]

Here are some stills of a captured Helferin wearing a similar jacket in gray or green. I believe it may actually be a KM member. The Army, LW and DRK didn't generally use jackets with the diagonally cut pockets. Many Wehrmacht Helferin were also given some medical training so they could act as medics, work in hospitals etc. The significance of this sequence of pictures is it shows a single breasted jacket with diagonally cut pockets, small breast pocket, and 3 buttons on the cuff.

[glaser]

There seems to be zero interest on this topic,but I'll keep trying to get some comments or answers. Anyway I've been trying to see if there's any method to determine if an item is Navy Blue or black. Evidently there's no sure way of determining if an item is dyed a deep navy blue. From what I've read many navies just dyed their items black (didn't fade as much) even though they state the items are navy blue. I've looked at a lot of KM uniforms and I can't distinguish between black or blue on many of them. Does anyone know if the KM substituted black for blue? Jim

Excellent topic Jim, very interesting! I think you don't get any comments because few of us know something about it! Marinehelferinnen working in MPHS Flandern in Bruges (Belgium) which is my area of intrest, wore civil clothing only.
Joe

[marine]

Hello!



Very interesting thread you have started. On the Forum Historicalmilitariaforum.com there is a thread Marine helferin; uniforms and insignia. Have posted some pictures from my small collection Marine Helferin stationed in Hysnes in Norway throughout the war. In Norway there were several companies that made both Uniforms And luer to the Germans. Those companies were; Werrings Eftf, Oslo. BRØDRENE HALLEN, Oslo. HERMAN MEHREN Established in 1903 in Oslo. THC Holm & Søn Oslo. OSVALD HORDES Luefabrik, Oslo. From these companies I have seen Uniforms and Luer. The uniforms have had a lot of shades of color on the fabric and the incisions on the uniforms have been slightly different than those sewn elsewhere (I mean, hue differences) I have little knowledge but hope this can help bit!


Best fro Norway.

[NARVIK1940]

"Luer" means "hats" in Norwegian.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[djpool]

Excellent topic Jim, very interesting! I think you don't get any comments because few of us know something about it! Marinehelferinnen working in MPHS Flandern in Bruges (Belgium) which is my area of intrest, wore civil clothing only.
Joe

Hi Joe,

The truth is civilian clothing was probably worn by the majority of Helferin. The Navy actually organized their Women's Auxiliaries Corps later in the war and had difficulties in obtaining the necessary uniforms. They used obsolete mens uniforms as a stopgap measure. Its not uncommon to see MH wearing a mix of military and civilian clothing.

I know theres no way to establish with any certainty that my jacket was manufactured for a MH. The best I can hope for is:

1. Establish that the jacket was of wartime origin. There are no synthetic materials used in its manufacture and the company existed during the war. No postwar history exists on the Schubert firm which sounds logical considering the fact that Chemnitz was badly damaged during the war and reconstruction proceeded slowly under Soviet rule.

2. Establish that the jacket was a style worn by the military. Wartime pictures confirm that similar jackets were worn by Wehrmacht Helferinnen. EM Schubert specialized in mens clothing and started manufacturing uniforms during the war. The subject jacket conforms to known mens patterns and by simple reversing the buttons you end up with a women's military style jacket.

3. Establish whether the color would have been acceptable for use by the KM. Heres where my experience is lacking.

Here are some screen grabs of a KM base that employed a large number of females surrendering at the taken of the war. The females wore a mix of civilian and military clothing.

Regards Jim

[djpool]

Hello!



Very interesting thread you have started. On the Forum Historicalmilitariaforum.com there is a thread Marine helferin; uniforms and insignia. Have posted some pictures from my small collection Marine Helferin stationed in Hysnes in Norway throughout the war. In Norway there were several companies that made both Uniforms And luer to the Germans. Those companies were; Werrings Eftf, Oslo. BRØDRENE HALLEN, Oslo. HERMAN MEHREN Established in 1903 in Oslo. THC Holm & Søn Oslo. OSVALD HORDES Luefabrik, Oslo. From these companies I have seen Uniforms and Luer. The uniforms have had a lot of shades of color on the fabric and the incisions on the uniforms have been slightly different than those sewn elsewhere (I mean, hue differences) I have little knowledge but hope this can help bit!


Best fro Norway.

Thank you. I think I joined the correct forum: Historicalwarmilitariaforum.com.

Did any female uniforms survive from any on the companies you mentioned.

I hope my book on the subject helps provide a little insight on the subject of female uniforms. Jim

[djpool]

"Luer" means "hats" in Norwegian.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thank you. Jim

[djpool]

Here's something unusual I found while examining the jacket. At first I thought it was an error but it's done on both sleeves. It's a small line of blue thread on the inside of the sleeve. Obviously something used to help the tailor. Maybe it's to identify the right sleeve from the left or to distinguish black from blue. I don't have a clue. Jim

[djpool]

Heres an Army Stabshelferin jacket with a similar cut.