Kriegsmarine Doctors buttons question

[NickG]

Did KM Doctors use the regular golden buttons ? or administrative silver buttons?
I assume golden but wanted to double check...
So silver only far Marine Verwaltung, right?

[compressore]

Golden

[danish dragoon]

The silver buttons was worn by " Die Marinebeamten " and not only Verwaltung.


There was also :

Technische Beamte

Justizbeamte

Marineapoteker

Zahnärtze

just to mention some

[Hans Kristian]

The silver buttons was worn by " Die Marinebeamten " and not only Verwaltung.


There was also :

Technische Beamte

Justizbeamte

Marineapoteker

Zahnärtze

just to mention some

Indeed...

[NickG]

OK so a doctor used golden buttons like I suspected...
but a dentist on the other hand used silver buttons? and a pharmacist used silver buttons...
Interesting!

[danish dragoon]

OK so a doctor used golden buttons like I suspected...
but a dentist on the other hand used silver buttons? and a pharmacist used silver buttons...
Interesting!

I think it is because the Doctors had a Military rank , but Dentists , pharmacists , teachers and so on didnt have a military rank. They was so called Zivil Marine Beamte.

[michael leone]

Golden buttons

As a practicing dentist, I feel slighted that highly trained and dedicated dentists in the kriegsmarine had to wear silver buttons, and their physician colleagues got to wear gold!
Such an injustice which would never happen in our navy.

[compressore]

I think it is because the Doctors had a Military rank , but Dentists , pharmacists , teachers and so on didnt have a military rank. They was so called Zivil Marine Beamte.

Hi,

this is only partial correct and valid until 1935. At this time, all of them were transferred to "Militaer-Beamte" with keeping also their "civil" status and all of them got "combatant" status in 1941.
The area of those administration officers is very complicated as it is a mix of military and civil government laws.

Regards
Christian

[danish dragoon]

Hi,

this is only partial correct and valid until 1935. At this time, all of them were transferred to "Militaer-Beamte" with keeping also their "civil" status and all of them got "combatant" status in 1941.
The area of those administration officers is very complicated as it is a mix of military and civil government laws.

Regards
Christian

Thank you for the correction you are absolutely right.

[compressore]

Status

As a practicing dentist, I feel slighted that highly trained and dedicated dentists in the kriegsmarine had to wear silver buttons, and their physician colleagues got to wear gold!
Such an injustice which would never happen in our navy.

The reason for this lies in the restrictions the Reichsmarien had after the I WW.
With a cap on active soldiers allowed to serve by the Versailles treaty, the idea to have those secondary functions fitted with civilians was borne as those were not counted as soldiers.
Physicaln doctors could not put into this scheme as they were an integrated part of the military organisation same as Zahlmeister and judicial staff.

Regards
Christian

[michael leone]

Buttons

Thank you Christian for the clarification. I remember reading that the two physicians and one dentist on board the Biamark died at their stations aiding the wounded ,despite the fact they could have tried to save themselves. I always wondered what they may have thought as they were trying to comfort the dead and dying all around them.
No matter what uniforms they wore or whose side they were on, they were examples of selflessness and dedication to those in need. They were members of the medical/dental professions first and foremost.

[NickG]

This has been a great and enlightening topic. Thanks to all who participated with answers.
So if I got I got right in the KM this "injustice" post 1941 meant doctors during the war were front line exposed and considered combatants with military rank....and therefor allowed gilded buttons...
dentists on the other hand were not...they remained zivil Marine Beamte post 1941.

[compressore]

Nick,

Doctors (physicians) have always worn "gold", their career was a fully military career same as the Zahlmeister, Seamen, Artillery etc.

The "silver" administration officers were first governed by "civil" law for "civil officers". Those were transferred under the military regulations in 1935 with having both - military and civil officers- status and bot laws applicable to them. This was due to complicated pension scheme,s health insurance etc. as those were covered and paid under the civil administration of the government and not by the military.
They kept this status until the end of the war.

The only change was made in 1941 with having them declared as "combatants" to have them covered under the Geneva convention.
But this declaration has not changed their status in front of the administration laws. Still they were both, military and civil officers and kept their "silver" buttons.

But its more complicated, and now it comes especially for Michael:

on 1st Januar 1945 a new career was created:
Marinesanitaetsoffiziere (Z): medical career for dentist, wearing GOLDEN buttons !!


Regards
Christian

[compressore]

Doctors

Thank you Christian for the clarification. I remember reading that the two physicians and one dentist on board the Biamark died at their stations aiding the wounded ,despite the fact they could have tried to save themselves. I always wondered what they may have thought as they were trying to comfort the dead and dying all around them.
No matter what uniforms they wore or whose side they were on, they were examples of selflessness and dedication to those in need. They were members of the medical/dental professions first and foremost.

I assume they were living their duty to help the wounded until their end.

This are the mentioned ones:

MarObAss-Arzt d.Res. (Zahnarzt), HINRICHSEN, Dr. Rolf, 09.04.1910
MarSt-Arzt KRÜGER Dr. Hans-Joachim
MarObAss-Arzt THIELE, Dr. Arvid 15.07.1921


I do have a reefer of Dr. Friedrich Schmale who died on Z26 on 29.03.1942 .

BTW, at 10:40 minutes a "colleague" of yours
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUJDNNfUrbY

[Hans Kristian]

As a practicing dentist, I feel slighted that highly trained and dedicated dentists in the kriegsmarine had to wear silver buttons, and their physician colleagues got to wear gold!
Such an injustice which would never happen in our navy.

Michael, you should read the book "Doctors under Hitler" by Michael H. Kater, it gives a very good description on the differences between dentists and doctors at the time.
Dentistry was not much appreciated at the period, the students that was accepted all came from lower-middle classes whereas the Medical students came from upper-classes and upper middle-class. And the difference was also reflected in the salary; the dentist never managed to make more than around 60% of what the doctors made (in general..).

Hans Kristian (medical doctor...)