Very Large Amount of Cap Tallies for Review (Part 1)

[JustinG]

Like others have said. The top "Kriegsmarine" tally shown in the first two is not a genuine example. All the others are quite nice. The Scharnhorst, you say is full length. If you ever sell it, you will have to show the tally in full length as the "Belfast" tally is deceiving and is copied on the example you shared.
The SEEBERUFSFACHSCHULE tally seems like it is black. It is similar in color to the other 3 tallies photographed. It is the first time I have seen this unit listed.
Very interesting. I did a quick search and came up with weitze site where he has a blue HJ example and a photo with a child wearing the Mützenband. The Tally he has it listed for 300Euro.
https://www.weitze.com/militaria/53/...e__175353.html
I too, await for better picture/scans. Nice collection so far.


Very nice,
JustinG

[compressore]

Hello,
The Seeberufsfachschulen were the subsequent name of the "Unteroffiziersvorschule". Those schools existed for all three branches but were not allowed to take new recruits in 1941 (OKM order from 2nd December 1941)

The Kriegsmarine "shipped" around this order by renaming their schools into "Seeberufsfachschule" and put them organization-wise under the civil Ministry for Education, but they were full run by the KM with active and reserve officers and NCOs.

Recruits already selected by the KM for entry in 1942 were informed that the school had been renamed. Those schools provided a vocational education for students starting with age of 14 or 15 years old with a clear direction into the careers of the navy. Technical and administration related schools existed.

For Hohenschwangau, its know that it was renamed only October 1944 from Unteroffiziersvorschule into Seeberufsfachschule.

As I said, I have only seen so far the white on blue ones tallies and not those typical KM gold on black.
I would like to see a proof that students wore both as I do not think there was a distinction between students. The selection and entitlement of candidates was done by the KM, the inspection of the schools done by Admiral Warzecha.

In the records its mentioned that the HJ had tried several time to gain control but failed.
So imo the tallies are NOT HJ but using only the same style.

Regards
Christian

[Nydigger1]

Sorry for the late response everyone! With the craziness of the holidays Ive had to put these on the back burner for a few days. But as promised I have pictures of the 2 tallies in question, which IMHO are both Belfast fakes. Both of the tallies are longer on one side and both have the exact same pattern of lettering on the reverse.

Ive gone through the rest of the tallies one by one (except for the repro 1st Kriegsmarine tally which has already been branded as such) and no other tallies have the characteristics of these two below.

Any further input is greatly appreciated!

[John R.]

The Scharnhorst is most probably a fake. To be clear, the unequal length collector rule only applies to this tally and no other tally.

It also means that a perfectly period Scharnhorst with equal lengths, but cut to the name or less than 100 cms overall, has to be passed up since there is no way to know if it is a fake or not.

Please measure the ends of the Scharnhorst when you have time and post here, from the end to the edge of the "S" and the end to edge of the "t". In cms please, not inches.

In the case of the SEEBERUFSFACHSCHULE school tally, it is a cut KM period example and not a fake at all. So that one can be sold, no problem.

Cut means shortened from wear length.

John

[compressore]

As stated before, I have seen so far only the white on blue Seeberufsfachschule tallies, same color code as the arm patches they used

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...rufsfachschule

I would like to see the KM version with some provenance .

[Norm F]

...but cut to the name or less than 100 cms overall, has to be passed up since there is no way to know if it is a fake or not.

Please measure the ends of the Scharnhorst when you have time and post here, from the end to the edge of the "S" and the end to edge of the "t". In cms please, not inches.

Although the lengths of the ends is the easiest way, you can also distinguish the H.M.S. Belfast souvenir Scharnhorst tally from an original by the finer details in the font.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Well, when I said no way, I should have known better!!!!!

John

[L11-VELASCO]

Hello,
The Seeberufsfachschulen were the subsequent name of the "Unteroffiziersvorschule". Those schools existed for all three branches but were not allowed to take new recruits in 1941 (OKM order from 2nd December 1941)

The Kriegsmarine "shipped" around this order by renaming their schools into "Seeberufsfachschule" and put them organization-wise under the civil Ministry for Education, but they were full run by the KM with active and reserve officers and NCOs.

Recruits already selected by the KM for entry in 1942 were informed that the school had been renamed. Those schools provided a vocational education for students starting with age of 14 or 15 years old with a clear direction into the careers of the navy. Technical and administration related schools existed.

For Hohenschwangau, its know that it was renamed only October 1944 from Unteroffiziersvorschule into Seeberufsfachschule.

As I said, I have only seen so far the white on blue ones tallies and not those typical KM gold on black.
I would like to see a proof that students wore both as I do not think there was a distinction between students. The selection and entitlement of candidates was done by the KM, the inspection of the schools done by Admiral Warzecha.

In the records its mentioned that the HJ had tried several time to gain control but failed.
So imo the tallies are NOT HJ but using only the same style.

Regards
Christian

Hi Christian
About tally you comment in this post:Seeberufsfachschule I purchased a week ago this pic from a boy wearing it and so I wanted to share here
subir fotos
Pic was commented before on this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=890963

Have you all a happy new year from Spain

Fernando

[compressore]

Nice picture, I have not seen the essen-werden school patch before but from this pic the typical construction.
Thanks for sharing!

[Marine HJ]

Seeberufsfachschule tally

Hi,

could you please post a close-up picture from the reverse side (of one or a few letters)?

What is your personal opinion - is it white-ish thread the letters are made of or is it yellow ?

Rgds

Daniel

[Nydigger1]

Thanks for the input everyone. The scharnhorst is going in the repro box and im going to put the Seeberufsfachschule in storage. Hopefully some day some more provenance will present itself regarding it.

[Nydigger1]

Hi,

could you please post a close-up picture from the reverse side (of one or a few letters)?

What is your personal opinion - is it white-ish thread the letters are made of or is it yellow ?

Rgds

Daniel

Threads are Yellow, but the grain of the lettering is the same as the Scharnhorst. As are the patterns of the letters on the reverse. Top one is the School tally, bottom is Scharnhorst:

[Norm F]

Top one is the School tally, bottom is Scharnhorst:

Since that "Scharnhorst" is too fuzzy to see, here's the equivalent section of another example of that type of repro for reference. Apparently these were made on period equipment by navy suppliers which is why they're so hard to spot (except for the lengths, of course)

Best regards,
---Norm