KM blue wool jumper

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I'm back from my first time attending the MAX show in Monroeville, Pennsylvania. Another first for me was buying something other than Minesweeper badge (sort of).

Here's the KM wool blue jumper of the Dienstanzug (Service Dress). It came with a separate Exerzierkragen (collar) and the silk neckerchief although they were not a grouping to one sailor (as far as I know). Of course, those who know me can see why I branched out of my comfort zone a bit with this purchase -- it happened to have the cloth Minesweeper badge attached.

Now that I've had a chance to study it, I quite like it but would also appreciate the opinions on the forum.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

There are surprisingly few example posted in the forum, although I found these two threads:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...88#post5263388
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=544387

It's been mentioned before that some have the braided blue ties at the neck while others don't. Not sure if they were eliminated from later production or whether they were removed by the sailors, but there is no apparent attachment site on my example.

On the inside you can see the inner left breast pocket for keeping the identification papers.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

On the inside of the shirt back just above the hemline are some faded markings. I assume the upper one is what's left of the depot proof stamp (Abnahmestempel) and below that the size markings. (Would appreciate some verification of this interpretation.)

On the inside of the front corner is the sailor's name tag (Namensläppchen) which reads "Rymkuhs" which seems to be a rather rare German name. I couldn't find any mention of the name on the internet other than a Rymkuhs who travelled from Germany to Halifax in 1935.

As you can see he was the 470th sailor to enlist in the North Sea station in 1939, and the "S" indicates he was Seemännisches Personal, i.e. deck personnel as opposed to "T" for technical personnel.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The combined rating/career patch shows he was a Hauptgefreiter in the career of Carpenter (Zimmermannslaufbahn). Again, searching the net, this seems to be a rather uncommon insignia to find.

And the icing on the cake, the cloth Minesweeper patch. Although I have no provenance on this item, I have no reason to suspect this was an add-on. It's an uncommon patch to find and appropriately attached to this type of working garment. In the few photos I've seen of the cloth patch in wear it was mounted somewhat lower -- presumably to allow space to mount any "higher" medals? -- so it's hard to if this one is correct.

Both insignia are neatly machine sewn in place in the same manner and there are no signs of any previous stitching in those locations.

[Norm F]

In contrast, I believe the breast eagle is a later addition. It's hand sewn (unlike the other insignia) and mounted too far laterally compared to all period photos I've seen. On the photos you can see outlines of the former (correct) location of a breast eagle. The old stitching is most noticeable on the inside.

So perhaps Zimmermannshauptegefreiter Rymkuhs removed the eagle at the end of the war and someone later sewed one back on in the wrong location.

In light of this information, what would others suggest -- should I remove the eagle?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's one other detail that interested me in learning about these things. The buttons are a kind of hard, water-resistant cardboard. The larger ones are on the cuffs, and three smaller ones are under the collar for attaching a small piece of cloth that can be used to close the collar at the neck.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Put it back where it originally was, using original thread.

[Norm F]

Put it back where it originally was, using original thread.

Hi Gentry,

That sounds like an interesting option for the eagle. Is it possible to find "original thread"? And I wonder what was the commonest form of stitching used for enlisted men's aagles?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Many (perhaps most) were machine sewn on the jumper, but this one appears (from the inside photo) to have been originally sewn on by hand. Original thread (black can be used) is readily available.

[compressore]

Hello Norm,
The blue jumper was not only used as working garment but also permitted for walk-out.
It can not be proven but the sailor may have put a "better"eagle (as this one is not a EM version) to a jumper he had used for this purpose although it is a bit off place.
If you will replace, look for a nice EM version.

Personally I would keep it as it is but its really a personal matter.

A great jumper and I like the minesweeper very much!

Regards
Christian

P.S.
I can put 2 meter original thread in an envelope and send it to you.
I got a roll from our WAF colleague Andjelo!

[Norm F]

Hi Christian,

Thanks for the reply, and that's a good point about the different outfits that would include the blue shirt. Would I be correct in thinking that the separate collar and neckerchief would often be omitted when working aboard ship and then worn all together in the Ausgehanzug?

As to the eagle, it was my understanding that any machine embroidered eagle would be just as often used on the EM uniform as well as the junior petty officers'?

Since the Minesweeper patch was forbidden after April, 1942, I guess I'm looking for any EM eagle in common usage between 1939 and 1942.

Best regards,
---Norm

P.S. Thanks for the offer about the thread! I just might take you up on that.

[compressore]

Eagle

Norm,

I have seen the eagle first only on my mobile phone. Now at the PC, you are right. Embroided EM version.

It seems that blue jumper with original insignia are more rare than white ones.
I do have two, both with woven eagles. Attached a pic of a jumper eagle, from a jumper still with factory paper tag and not issued as no signs of any sleeve career patch.

Also both of mine do not have the blue cords. I have not yet figured out if they have to be there, or only worn at a certain period.
I checked many photos but not have found one yet with showing the blue cords.

For the jumper as 'walk-out" dress for sure always with white collar. On board I assume depended on the duty. Many pictures showing it with, many without white collar.

[Norm F]

Hi Christian,

Are there depot marks on your jumpers indicating the year of issue? It would be nice to correlate those dates to the use of the machine woven eagles and lack of blue braided cords.

My understanding regarding the braided blue cords is that they were worn tucked inside so we can't see them in period photos.

Best regards,
---Norm

[compressore]

I think the factory jumper never had reached a KM depot so therefore no depot stamp.
For the rarity of blue jumpers over the white I think as they did not have a navy collar like the white ones, they were much used after the war as normal civil garment.

Regards
Christian

[km-spain]

Hi Norm, that is a nice jumper, and as Christian says rarer to find that the white ones, probably they, or just their blue fabric, were used after the war.

On the inside of the shirt back just above the hemline are some faded markings. I assume the upper one is what's left of the depot proof stamp (Abnahmestempel) and below that the size markings. (Would appreciate some verification of this interpretation.)

You are right, the upper stamp is from the clothing depot, unfortunately not visible the date or size, and the lower is from the maker.

So perhaps Zimmermannshauptegefreiter Rymkuhs removed the eagle at the end of the war and someone later sewed one back on in the wrong location.

I would remove this eagle and replace it for a Bevo one, much more usual for these garments. The place of the eagle is wrong, in the jumpers, white or blue, they were always sewn over the breast round seam (see picture of mine), usually machine sewn as Leroy says.