Tropical Helmet Shields

[Steve DT]

Am I correct that these are KM?
Unfortunately the prongs are bent on the tricolour shield and one is missing from the eagle. The seller told me he removed them from a crushed helmet, fwiw.

Thanks for looking!
Steve

[Steve DT]

Shields

[Steve DT]

Maker mark on the national colours.
I can't see one on the eagle.

[Jean-Claude]

Hi Stve

The national/tricolour shield in aluminum is marked with the A. Scholze logo you also see on war badges (IAB, PAB etc) and the eagle shield looks to be a tombac specimen so its not a matched set but possibly used together non the less even if the wear on both shields doesnt match. With that being said I suspect the eagle to be an army specimen with the silver wash worn off on the front as there appears to be traces of the original silver finish on the back but wait for more knowledgeable opinions to be sure

JC

[tejanofig]

Both are not Kriegsmarine. Eagle is the type used on Heer pith helmets.
I am not home to send photos of Kriegs shields but Kriegsmarine shields are flat non 3 dimensional type. You should be able to find examples on this forum.
jfig

[Tim O'Keefe]

Agree with Jose, these are both Herr shields not KM. KM shields do not have a border around the edge.

[Steve DT]

Ok thanks a lot guys. I obviously don't know much about these things, but I like them.
S

[Jean-Claude]

Both are not Kriegsmarine. Eagle is the type used on Heer pith helmets.
I am not home to send photos of Kriegs shields but Kriegsmarine shields are flat non 3 dimensional type. You should be able to find examples on this forum.
jfig

I have to disagree with this statement...

Just because a few boxes of unissued "non 3 dimensional" shields that happened to be Kriegsmarine have hit the market over the last couple of years doesnt necessarily mean that all KM tropenhelm shields are made like that. This is only one of many variations and I suspect the same "flat shield" maker probably produced a Heer/silver version as well (if he had an order).

I dont have tons of catalogues/references as evidence to support this claim but in the Assmann catalog both the Army and the KM tropenhelm adlers (with different catalog numbers) use the same typical 3d Assmann eagle and national shields dies that were used for tombac, aluminum and zink shields and I have serious doubts that any other manufacturer tasked to produce such devices would have used a different set of dies for the navy version

Attached is a copy of the tropenhelm catalog page along with a maker marked aluminum specimen from this maker

Regards

JC

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Jean-Claude

You & Jose are both correct. The KM used shields without a border around the edge as well as a shield with a border, eagle is gold/yellow in both cases. There are some examples that have been around for a long time in collections of used/worn KM tropenhelms with the used/worn flat "shields" (without border) & some examples of the KM sunhelmets using the type of shield with a border around the edge too. Don't think the Germans cared at all as to which shield was on their helmet.

Agree that many makers used another makers original die for these shields. The Assman die can be found with several makers marks on different shields

[tejanofig]

Learn something new every day.
Thanks Jean-Claude & Tim.
jfig

[Norm F]

Interesting discussion. The Reichswehr-era B&W catalog doesn't tell us the colour of the eagle on that page -- only the design which is labelled "Reichsheer und Reichsmarine". But there seem to be two different catalog numbers so the implication is that the eagle would be a different colour for the two services, or else one would expect they would have the same catalog number. Notice that the 3-piece hardware set in the next row has a single catalog number, so I assume the shield set has a single number for both the eagle and national colour shields together. But alternatively, that could be a separate catalog number for each shield and in fact both services used identical insignia during the Reichswehr era.

Has anyone ever actually seen the same type of shield with an intact finish on the eagle clearly differentiating Heer from Marine? The catalog is interesting but by no means definitive. It could be that it shows a Heer set and the Marine set isn't pictured at all but it's close enough to save catalog space. And it could be that convention changed between Reichsmarine and Kriegsmarine.

Regardless, I have no doubt that KM personnel wore tropical helmets with Heer shields on them from time to time (although that doesn't necessarily make them "KM" shields).

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The national/tricolour shield in aluminum is marked with the A. Scholze logo you also see on war badges (IAB, PAB etc) and the eagle shield looks to be a tombac specimen so it's not a matched set but possibly used together non the less even if the wear on both shields doesn't match.

I agree that they're not a matched set, and I think the only way they could have been used together would be if the tri-colour shield was replaced later.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Norm

Thanks for adding some more info. Agree that the KM wore Herr shields (does not make them KM) as well as their own design, and sometimes with no shields at all.

The Kurtz Afrikakorps book has some photos of KM helmets with the shields without border page #212, 213 & 214. As does our friend Jose's headgear book from 20 years ago page # 139 & 140, still a good reference today


"I agree that they're not a matched set, and I think the only way they could have been used together would be if the tri-colour shield was replaced later."

Interesting, from the factory the shields should match makers ? exceptions of course. Mention it as i have a used GI signed Herr tropenhelm with mismatched makers shields but was thinking thats ok, but couple years ago after re-thinking/re-examining the helmet now think the tricolor is original to the helmet but the eagle shield is replaced as its a sharp looking bird, swaped perhaps by the GI's that took the helmet. The prongs are really bent out of shape on the eagle but the tricolor prongs are a nice snug fit. Here is a thread on that helmet..?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=345984

with regards
Tim

[Norm F]

"I agree that they're not a matched set, and I think the only way they could have been used together would be if the tri-colour shield was replaced later."

Interesting, from the factory the shields should match makers ?

Hi Tim,

I wasn't thinking so much about the mismatched makers as the mismatched materials and wear. From previous discussions, I believe the hollow-stamped Tombak manufacture to be earlier (pre-war and early wartime) versus the aluminum Gablonz-made aluminum with crimped hardware (mid- to late war). Combined with the fact that the tri-colour aluminum shield looks quite unworn while the Tombak eagle shield is heavily worn suggests they would have been used at different times.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Norm

Ok got it thanks, thats a good observation. Could also apply to the Herr example i mentioned above as the tricolor is well worn while the national emblem still looks sharp today, as far as being swapped out ?

with best regards
Tim