Cap Tallies

[Marc verstraete]

To bad the cap tallies tread is closed :-(

I had a few to add. I post them here for the KM fans :-)

Marc

[Marc verstraete]

two very small sized caps . obviously for HJ marine.

[John R.]

Marc,

The cap tally thread was closed due to its length. It was very awkward to search through and was really meant as a research and study thread, not a thread to post collections.

Collections are better presented in their own thread, not research threads.

The same applies to KM war badges in that there are threads for study, threads to post collections.

In any case, your caps are not Marine Hitler Youth (MHJ). They are children patriotic caps normally worn with an entire child sailor outfit ensemble. They are interesting, but not MHJ. This is a a MHJ cap from my collection for comparison.

Please post your Scharnhorst cap tally spread out so we can see the entire tally to make sure it is not a Belfast fake.

John

[John R.]

Marc,

All that said, please check carefully inside the caps themselves to see if there is a MHJ RZM tag in there. Never know. The tallies are very interesting, but like I said, for children.

Check under the sweatband also.

Also check the membership pin on the second cap and see if it is prong back or pin back. Looks like prong back, so maybe there is hope it is a MHJ cap cover if there is a RZM tag. I doubt there are RZM tags in those caps though.

John

[Marc verstraete]

Fake ??

[Marc verstraete]

Marc,

All that said, please check carefully inside the caps themselves to see if there is a MHJ RZM tag in there. Never know. The tallies are very interesting, but like I said, for children.

Check under the sweatband also.

Also check the membership pin on the second cap and see if it is prong back or pin back. Looks like prong back, so maybe there is hope it is a MHJ cap cover if there is a RZM tag. I doubt there are RZM tags in those caps though.

John

I looked inside the caps, no RZM tags :-( the HJ pin is a prong back with rzm and "M" marking.

I have another such " children" cap photo below
Marc

[John R.]

Those are very nice childrens' caps IMO. They do not command a lot of money since the collecting market for them is quite limited, but I really like them for what they are. You do not see that many U-boat related examples though, normally large capital ships.

What is the overall length of Scharnhorst in cm's and the length of each end past the first and last letter?

The membership pin is not easy to find Marc. Pin back examples are quite common, but the prong back, used on caps, are not.

John

[John R.]

Fake ??

I am not sure right now. The general rule is that if a Scharnhorst tally has asymmetrical ends, meaning one side is longer than the other to either side of the first and last letters, it is almost impossible to tell the difference between that and a fake.

If you type in the word Belfast into the search function for this forum, you will see the problem.

John

[Marc verstraete]

I am not sure right now. The general rule is that if a Scharnhorst tally has asymmetrical ends, meaning one side is longer than the other to either side of the first and last letters, it is almost impossible to tell the difference between that and a fake.

If you type in the word Belfast into the search function for this forum, you will see the problem.

John

The size of the tally is 24 cm on the right and 46 cm on the left. ( of the letters)
with a few mm room

[John R.]

Unfortunately, your Scharnhorst tally has to be put in the probable fake box. The rule for Scharnhorst is simple:

If it is not a full length tally (at least 110 cms with equal length sides from the letters), it is not worth owning. It has a value of zero.

So somebody could buy your tally for $5 and then cut down the one side to 24 cm on the right and 24 cm on the left. It is still worth zero.

Maybe it was a period tally of 150 cms (my example of 110 is for a little sailor maybe since the tally had to go to the collar, not any longer, not any shorter) and his mother cut it down to 24cms on the right and left and put it in a photo album.

It is worth zero. It worth zero since there is no way to determine if the tally was a fake or not.

Scharnhorst is not that rare for tallies. Big crews. Each sailor had a few tallies. Any sailor not even on that ship could have bought one in a uniform shop.

You have to go with one with equal lengths, greater than 100 cms at least, and nothing less.

This rule does not apply to any other tally that we know of.

John

[John R.]

I still like those rare children's caps though. Not extremely valuable, but the hobby is not all about money either. That are interesting.

Your prong back membership pin is worth 4 times at least the usual pin back pin too.

So you have to consider that also.

I like pillow case patriotic pillow cases, the ones with ships on them. Not worth that much either. I still like them.

John

[John R.]

The other tallies, KM and SMS, are all period IMO. Not valuable, but interesting since you can research the unit a bit.

Tallies are fun to collect, will not break the bank for most of them.

The U-boat examples seem to have disappeared, and some tallies are very rare, but only valuable to specialized collectors of these items.

John

[Marc verstraete]

Thank you guy's for all the info. I must admit, i'm not really into these tally's , they are just part of a greater picture "KM items; I needed a opinion before to put them on the estand. And you did a great job !

I do have a last one, this orange one ... ??? Looks good to me but .... ???

Marc

[John R.]

Marc, I am not sure what that is to be honest. The generally accepted opinion is that Graf Spee had a number of colorful canteen tallies/souvenir tallies. Or, they might have been available post war at reunions. I tend to think they were sold aboard Graf Spee, but not sure at this point what this orange one might be. Probably a canteen tally.

They come primarily in blue but much longer in length, also green and yellow. Now orange.

I would very much like to study that tally in hand if you would be willing. I will send you a PM.

Colorful "gala" tallies sold as souvenirs were very common aboard merchant vessels and bought by passengers or found inside the final dinner menu card. This was true of most merchant navies of the times that carried paying passengers.

John

[John R.]

This is a gala tally. Merchant Marine. German merchant marine, French merchant marine, all had long traditions of gala tallies and the examples with the post 1933 NS flag are simply examples of that timeframe.

John