Bernhard Rogge

[Tony Mickelson]

I purchased this Old Style White Jacket and Pants over 10 years ago from a dealer in Northern Germany. The dealer stated it was owned by Rogge who served in WW2 and became an admiral. I remembered the movie "Under Ten Flags" and the story about the Atlantis. Kriegsmarine is not my area of expertise, but the uniform was priced comparable to the average WW2 German Army White uniform. If it was owned by Admiral Rogge, it would be an interesting piece of history for the collection. So I took a chance, since you can never be 100% sure of these things. I researched Konteradmiral Rogge and looked at numerous pictures of him. I can not find anything which would indicate this uniform wasn't owned by the Admiral. The size of the uniform looks appropriate for the admiral's height and body mass. The award layout is appropriate for Rogge's 1920's/early 30's period of service. From what I can tell by looking at other threads, this uniform looks like it is pre-WW2. Since again, Kriegsmarine is out side of area of expertise, I would be happy to get some input on the tunic.

[Tony Mickelson]

More Pictures

Here is pictures of the left and right upper pockets:

[Tony Mickelson]

More Pictures

Here is a picture of the collar and inside. It looks at one time the shoulder boards might have been sewed in.

[Tony Mickelson]

More Pictures

Here is a picture of Konteradmiral Rogge in the 1930's and a picture of the trouser lining (with name and tailor.)

[Tony Mickelson]

More Pictures

Though there is no way to determine if Admiral Rogge own these shoulder boards, they look original to the time frame. The buttons have a faint residue of gold color on them and the backside has the Wiemar Republic eagle on it. I can't get a good picture of the eagle marking though-very worn down. Anyway any comments on if the uniform is from the preWW2 era and if the tailor label is correct for that pre-WW2 period would be appreciated.

[reichenberg]

Don't know about the uniform, but I recently found out about his Jewish background.



Rogge was one of many German officers who were forced to apply for a German Blood Certificate, that would allow their racial background to be overlooked (he had a Jewish grandparent). His wife, Anneliese née Frahm, committed suicide on 4 September 1939. The next day, his mother in law also ended her life willingly.

He is mentioned in the Nazi Collaborators series which can be found on youtube in the episode The Jews that fought for Hitler, although I dont believe myself that he could be considered a collaborator, but a patriotic German.

[Tony Mickelson]

Yes, his grandmother was Jewish and he had to have paperwork completed on his purification to continue his military service under the Nazi regime. Unfortunately there is a narcissistic tendency these days to judge individuals from other generations based on association and not the individual's actions. B. Rogge was one of the few German Flag Officer that was never arrested for any crimes against humanity. It is noted that the Allies looked extensively at all documents for evidence of war crimes of the leadership in all branches of the military. The material I read is he served from the Kaiser thru the Bundeswehr as a professional officer abiding by the international law in the execution of his responsibilities.

[glaser]

Hello, did you checked the name tag with UV-light?

[Tony Mickelson]

There is no glow/fluorescence. It is the same illumination as the rest of the uniform.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but to my knowledge all that means it is just made of natural fiber material (not synthetic material.) So if a material glows, it would indicate a synthetic material (like polyester) which were not used until after WW2. This would eliminate a uniform as not being manufactured prior to 1945 if the material glowed under UV light. Am I correct on the reason of the UV light test-yes or no?

[NOR_collector]

Hi.

Yes you are correct Tony. The UV light is used to eliminate fabric not being manufactured prior to 1945. It is a good test if you need to find out something fast, like if you are on a auction or something like that. The problem is that the fabric could be 100% wartime made, but glows like hell because someone has washed it with newer types of detergent, that makes any fabric glow under UV light. You could also do a brun test on the fabric to check if it is cotton/natural fiber or synthetic material.

A lot of relicas are being made of the same material used prior to 45, so be careful. UV light and fire test does not always mean that the item is made prior to 1945.

Regards,
André

[Tony Mickelson]

Thanks Andre',
I 100% agree. The UV light is some help, but not reliable. Everybody talks about it, but nobody ever explains why. The thread burning is helpful. Burning wool smells like burnt hair, cotton burns like a smooth burning fuse or slow det cord (without the sparks), and synthetic thread forms little balls without the burnt hair smell. Still as you indicate there are no guarantees. I have collected Army uniforms for over 30 years, and I have been burnt numerous times. Over the last 10 years I discovered a nice named general coat I bought 15 years ago is likely a Janke 1970's manufactured coat. The tailoring of the coat is high quality with natural material, but what gave it away was the Tailor's label. I discovered it was one of the post war reproductions which Janke used, so that places the whole coat as being suspect. Unless one has solid provenance, there is always some uncertainty (especially with Generals/ Admiral named uniforms due to the money involved.) The good news is so far that there is nothing that indicates it was not one of Admiral Rogge's early uniform. Bringing this uniform up to the forum, I figure I will have the toughest critics examine it. That is why I love this forum.

[NOR_collector]

Tony,
As you said, this could be Admiral Rogge's early uniform. Are there any makermark and/or size, year markings inside the jacket? What mm does the buttons have and are there any production year stamped on the back of the buttons?

There are loops for one badge and a long ribbon bar. and from the picture of Admiral Rogge, this is what he wears. Do you know if had been awarded any other badges at that time? Some did not wear all their badges all the time, but it is difficult to see if there are any loops for other badges on the picture where he use the blue uniform. If he was awarded more badges than just the EKI, I would assume that there would be more loops on the white uniform.

Regards,
André

[Tony Mickelson]

Hi Andre',

His awards that he wore during the 1930's was: IC (1914) 2nd and 1st Class; Honor Cross of WW1; Wehrmarcht Long Service Award; and the Medaille Zur Erinnerung. After 1940, he was awarded numerous awards to include the RK. During the 30's he appears not to place the IC 2nd class ribbon on the lapel button holes, but wears it only on the chest ribbon bar. Photos after 1940, he does have the IC 2nd class lapel button ribbon with the 1939 spange. So the award loops appear correct for his 1930 service. He was promoted to Korvetten kapitan 1 Oct 1934 and to Fregatten Kapitan on 1 Nov 1937. Outside of the early shoulder buttons, the date on the pocket button set is 1938 and the front buttons are all the same but different than the pocket buttons without a date. So the shoulder boards and pocket buttons are from different times. That is the problem with these summer white uniforms, buttons and shoulder boards are changed frequently, so you never know if these are Rogge's original buttons and shoulder boards. The only markings and labels are illustrated on the pictures above. Somebody lightly in pencil wrote "Rogge", but I figure that was probably the dealer. So that is about all I know,
Tony

[compressore]

Hello,

i do personally like this uniform and I would take it into my collection as being from Rogge.
The mentioned dealer indeed bought the estate and I do not doubt that this was in the lot as stated by him.
Also particular this dealer would not "produce" such a jacket.
As said, my opinion and no proof....

Regards
Christian

[Tony Mickelson]

Thanks Christian and others for your opinions. It is a keeper in my collection since I feel pretty good that it was one of Bernhard Rogge's early uniforms. Even with the stains, adding a bar, breast Eagle, and IC 1st class medal and placing it on a mannequin makes a nice display.