Is a Gunnery officers tunic?

[bbeck]

I am not sure if this is a Gunnery Officers tunic (on board a ship) or a Costal Artillery officers tunic? Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Bruce

[bbeck]

eagle and close up

2

[R.Beck]

Would have to see the inside first in order to determine if its of the period

[tgn]

I saw the inside. It is a real tunic. Back to the question at hand, is this a gunnery officer tunic for a capital ship?

[compressore]

This tunic is "land-based" Marineartillerie.
Ships artillery was commanded by Line-Officers, for example Adalbert Schneider as commander of the artillery on board of the Bismarck. Those officers had special "training" but no special sign for this. The KM had an own school for "ships-artillery" (same as for other "specialties" like Torpedo-Officers etc.)
Regards
Christian


Regards
Christian

[bbeck]

Gunnery Officer

The Gunnery Officer Position:

This is what is frustrating it appears that Captain Lindemann was not a line officer but that he spend his Naval career in gunnery posts. It seems that his knowledge on weapon systems was more important than being a line officer with a command (he never commanded a ship before the Bismarck, see bio below). So if this is correct would he have worn the sleeve device as a "artillery ordinance officer" or that of a "naval artillery officer" or "something else" other prior to commanding the Bismarck? My research suggests that the gunnery officers fell into and "artillery" type officer duty. The command staff positions are delineated on a capital ship:

Commander Kapitän zur See Ernst Lindemann.
· Executive Officer (Erster Offizier, I.O.): Fregattenkapitän Hans Oels.
· First Artillery Officer (Erster Artillerie Offizier, I.A.O.): Korvettenkapitän Adalbert Schneider.
Second Artillery Officer (Zweiter Artillerie Offizier, II.A.O.): Korvettenkapitän Helmut Albrecht.
·· Navigation Officer (Navigationsoffizier, N.O.): Korvettenkapitän Wolf Neuendorf.
· Chief Engineer (Leitender Ingenieur, L.I.): Korvettenkapitän (Ing.) Walter Lehmann.
· (Bordnachrichtenoffizier, B.N.O.): Korvettenkapitän Kurt-Werner Reichard.
· Electrical Engineer (Elektroingenieur): Korvettenkapitän Wilhelm Freytag.
·· Fourth Artillery Officer (IV. Artillerieoffizier, IV.A.O.): Kapitänleutnant Burkard von Müllenheim-Rechberg.
· A.A. Chief Artillery Officer (Leiter der Flak): Kapitänleutnant Karl Gellert.

Of note all of these positions have their own distinct sleeve insignia that is why I am trying to verify what the "Gunnery Officer" would wear. A "star" or another type of specialty insignia. By the way Korvettenkapitän Adalbert Schneider appears to have had an artillery career. This is the questions....


Biography:
"Ernst Lindemann was frustrated by the fact that—as commander of the Naval Gunnery School—he would never come into direct contact with the enemy. When he received the news that he had been selected to be the first commander of the battleship Bismarck, he was honoured by the trust that had been bestowed on him but doubted that he would be able to get Bismarck ready for action before the war was over. His doubts suggest that he was confident the war would end in a favourable outcome for Germany by mid-1940.[38] Prior to commanding Bismarck, Lindemann had never held any shipboard command, a situation rare if not unique in the Kriegsmarine. Nevertheless, Lindemann had served exclusively on ships with a gun calibre of at least 28 cm (11 in), and he was Germany's leading gunnery expert. In 1940, he ranked second out of Crew 1913 and was considered an outstanding leader"

[compressore]

Hi bbeck.
Your wrote"
Of note all of these positions have their own distinct sleeve insignia that is why I am trying to verify what the "Gunnery Officer" would wear."

That is not the case.
Have a look at the KM ranklists and you will find:

Lindemann , Schneider, Gellert, Albrecht, Reichard.....all are listed as "zur See".
So all of them are line officers (star on the sleeve).

The rank lists says too what "additional capability" they are trained and holding "permits" for (if applicable) :"To, Fla, Art, FT....".

This is an additional training which enabled them to work in those fields. But NO special insignia for this training was given or worn and this was not field they had to stay in for the rest of the career. (Lindemanns specialty before Artillery was Communication)

The real "specialist" officers, indicated by the special insignia on the sleeve, are rare (except "Ing" and "MA") as training was long. Those highly educated technical specialist were mostly in staff positions.

Regards
Christian

[bbeck]

Christian
Thanks for the information it is very helpful. Here is the name tag inside of the tunic. Yes, I was hoping it belonged to Bismarck Korvettenkapitän Schneider but I guess it is not to be. The rank and name match, loops for one badge, and a small ribbon bar, but the sea officer device is not there on the sleeve...oh well!
Thank you again for your information.
Bruce

[compressore]

Hi,
I do understand that you are a bit disappointed....I would be too.
Nevertheless a very nice jacket and not so often seen. I would love to have it.

To the name.
Schneider is very, very common name in Germany. Not to have the given name or initials nor the rank in the jacket makes it "uncertain" to connect it to one person if there are no other information available.

The latest ranklist I have is 1st Sept. 1944. Based on this and on Lohman-Hildebrand, there are two possibilities:

1. Schneider, Hermann, Dr., 15.2.1897 (not to mix with a second of same name but Dr. of medicine). Mostly in staff and administration units.
2. Schneider, Georg, 22.04.1902, KIA 24.04.1945, served mostly in "combat" units

Also it is possible that the owner of the jacket was a "reserve" officer. Than his name is not in the list.
I hope that it helps a bit even it is not nailing down the jacket to one person.

Regards
Christian

[Ludwig]

Under all circumstances a wonderful tunic!

[bbeck]

Hello Christian,
I guess I will settle for:
"Schneider, Georg, 22.04.1902, KIA 24.04.1945, served mostly in "combat" units"
Maybe something will come out of this, a combat naval officer would be cool .
Thanks Again!
Bruce

[km-spain]

Bruce, great reefer, I love it and agree with Christian, don't mind to have it in my collection ...

IMO should be one of them ...

[bbeck]

Great information! It looks like Dr. Schneider made Fregattenkapitän so I would think that this would bounce him out as a contender. This would now leave Korvettenkapitän Georg Schnieder of the Marine Artillery as our last man standing

[compressore]

think same...

Great information! It looks like Dr. Schneider made Fregattenkapitän so I would think that this would bounce him out as a contender. This would now leave Korvettenkapitän Georg Schnieder of the Marine Artillery as our last man standing

Yes, most likely and I would go for the same.
Also I strongly believe that the OKK would put the title "Dr." on the tag as the title was a important part of the "name" and it would have been "disrespectful" to miss this.


Regards
Christian

[km-spain]

Also I strongly believe that the OKK would put the title "Dr." on the tag as the title was a important part of the "name" and it would have been "disrespectful" to miss this.

Good point Christian, 100% agree