Tally from E-stand, Paul Jacobi

[Adelheim]

Tally from Zerstörer Paul Jacobi is listed for sale on E-stand
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=758804
In my book it's a post war tally.
Other opinions?

[11C]

In my book it's a post war tally.
Other opinions?

What do you see that makes you think that?

[JustinG]

You are correct. This is not an accepted version.
Interesting thing that I find is that there was no other later ship with this moniker. So this is the first post war "replica" or non period piece for a Zerstörer class ship I have seen.
Up until now, I have seen ships or units that were listed as possible Imperial or RM period but were actually BM era. Many ships have the same names as previous, they might have been traded from a previous version: Moewe, Gniesenau, Scharnhorst, Hessen, etc...
The Zerstörer of the Reich were named after WW1 sailors: officers and or enlisted personnel who fought with extreme heroism and bravery. So there was no previous versions of these that were from Imperial times.


Top one from my collection is the accepted style.

Regards,
JustinG

[11C]

see next post.....

[11C]

Because the Paul Jacobi was launched in 1936 it would not have had that earlier 'style' tally, or is that a later style and not consistent with Kriegsmarine tally styles?

[JustinG]

From a quick look, I haven't been able to find the exact date or transition point from when the Imperial/Reichsmarine decided to switch to the gothic lettering of the pre-war and war years. Look at post 280 in the Pinned tally thread. :Looks like 1927-1929 is when the switch to letter style from block letter to Gothic style tool place.
Much discussion regarding the construction and the process for these pre-WW2 style is not in dispute. All tallies from the late 1800's were consrtucted on a Jacquard weaving loom. Checking the pinned thread for Imperial/RM/KM tallies in this section you will see numerous posts of front and back shots of the various tallies. There are wonderful examples of all styles.
Many Imperial tallies didn't use the Umlaut ü Some did of course. Example: The S.M.S Nuernberg had also the S.M.S Nürnberg But, in that example the umlaut is over the letter and not to the sides as shown in the photo of the auction tally.

See post 122, 123, 210, 255
*263
#280, 294.


These are some great starting points. You will see in the shots provided, that this construction is not accepted at all as being a pre war or wartime example.

Hope that helps.

I am posting photos here from the sale thread to keep this post relevant after the sale has ended.

Regards,
JustinG

[11C]

From a quick look, I haven't been able to find the exact date or transition point from when the Imperial/Reichsmarine decided to switch to the gothic lettering of the pre-war and war years. Look at post 280 in the Pinned tally thread. :Looks like 1927-1929 is when the switch to letter style from block letter to Gothic style tool place.
Much discussion regarding the construction and the process for these pre-WW2 style is not in dispute. All tallies from the late 1800's were consrtucted on a Jacquard weaving loom. Checking the pinned thread for Imperial/RM/KM tallies in this section you will see numerous posts of front and back shots of the various tallies. There are wonderful examples of all styles.

Come to think of it, I don't recall too many imperial or RM tallies that used the Umlaut ¨ they preferred to spell out.

See post 122, 123, 210, 255
*263
#280, 294.


These are some great starting points. You will see in the shots provided, that this construction is not accepted at all as being a pre war or wartime example.

Hope that helps.

I am posting photos here from the sale thread to keep this post relevant after the sale has ended.

Regards,
JustinG

Thanks so much for the information Justin. A couple more questions....... Could this be a original "post war" tally or because the ship was, after the war property of England and then later France, it's probably a fake or fantasy item?

http://www.wehrmacht-history.com/kri...-destroyer.htm

[JustinG]

I believe this is a complete fabrication.
From Wikipedia, the Paul Jacobi went to France and was commissioned as the Desaix. They wouldn't have re-manufactured a tally with the original name in France or in Germany at least not officially. The construction also makes this an improbability.

Regards,
JustinG

[11C]

I believe this is a complete fabrication.
From Wikipedia, the Paul Jacobi went to France and was commissioned as the Desaix. They wouldn't have re-manufactured a tally with the original name in France or in Germany at least not officially. The construction also makes this an improbability.

Regards,
JustinG

Seems that way...

[John R.]

Agree with Justin--good work Justin. The pinned thread is long but full of information. It will also most probably reflect the most information on tallies for a long long time to come.

John

[11C]

Agree with Justin--good work Justin. The pinned thread is long but full of information. It will also most probably reflect the most information on tallies for a long long time to come.

John

Since I'm really just starting to collect in this area..............are there any good reference books I can research in or is the pinned thread my best source of information to this point?

[JustinG]

Thanks John Robinson. He as well as collectors on this forum: Markus, Bernd, Dani, and many others helped with my education regarding the naval tallies. The pinned thread is probably the best and most extensive discussions and source of knowledge for the english speaking forums. There are not many on this forum who collect or post Mützenband or cap tallies on here. A short search and review is also very helpful.
There are a couple of great reference books listed in the pinned section.
Bernd Wedeking und Markus Bodeux have done several publications.
Their imperial book is quite extensive and a wonderful collection of great photos and examples. Highly recommended. The Third Reich example is out of print and extremely hard to find.

Best Regards,
JustinG

[JustinG]

On a side note. For British tallies: pre-war and wartime tallies had a period following the name of the ship or unit.
Post war got rid of that. Very helpful as there are many ships that bear the same namesakes. The HMS Ark Royal for example, had 4 namesakes in the 20th Century. The World war 2 example is worth quite a bit of money where as the 1980's -2011 aircraft carrier tally would be worth exceptionally less but would have same general construction. ( and no period following the name)

Best Regards,
JustinG

[Frank K]

Interesting thing that I find is that there was no other later ship with this moniker. So this is the first post war "replica" or non period piece for a Zerstörer class ship I have seen.
Regards,
JustinG

It's definitely not a Kriegsmarine period item as advertised. Then it can be discussed what it is then but I agree with Justin.