New Cap Tally in collection

[R.R.]

Hi Frank,

I did some research on this Tally with Dani when it came up.

Dani did mention that he had seen this tally before and also that it existed in a Panzer Kreuzer Graf Spee also. I spoke with the seller and he could only say that he got it from a former Sailor .

Dani was unsure if this was a KM tally as it had more characterisitics of a BM tally in its construction so as I don't collect BM tallies and because of the question marks about it I passed on purchasing it.

Dani also mentioned that he had heard but not seen that the original drawings for the Panzerschiffe had the Panzer Kreuzer name written on it and perhaps that this had been derived from there as a private purchase Tally??

Anyhow too many question marks for me but it was a Metallfaden example.
The loops on the stitiching reverse was more indicative of a BM Tally.

Here are some reference pics -






If anyone else has any relevant info on these it would be interesting to know.

Cheers
JustinC

Panzerkreuzer was the ship type classification, but I think it was never used in it's designation. The only designations I have see for Deutschland class ships are Panzerschiff or Schwerer Kreuzer, but I think at some blue prints may be they used it's type classification as a Panzerkreuzer project.

Regards,

Ricardo

[JustinG]

I too saw this tally offered on Ebay.de recently. Well constructed and these are in pretty good shape. My thought is that these might have been produced pre-war as a possible test release before getting the actual designation/classification, but were mostly unavailable as the ship class was to be decided to be Panzerschiff vs. PanzerKreuzer. This is pure speculation as I would expect that then there would be metalfaden versions of the Deutschland, Scheer and Graf Spee

With such an early commission date for the Deutschland of April 1933 with the Launch in May 1931 and we have all seen photos of the Deutschland as well as other ships with their launching ceremonies with the name hanging off the bow. Makes one wonder if and when a ship's mützenbander would be begun to be constructed by the companies before the launch and then commission?

I am under the camp that believes that the Kreuzer Prinz Eugen had war time issued tallies from pre war and were broken out later when the USS. Prinz Eugen was taken over and the German Engineers wore their mützenband as seen with John Robinson's wonderful grouping.

Would love to find out or have access to check the records, and see if anywhere the wording( for the now known as the Panzerschiff) were ever referred to as a Panzerkreuzer???


If anyone else knows more about how an order would be issued or requested for a company to begin official production of a ships muetzenbander or wrappen etc... Would be great to hear.

These above is just my ramblings and possible inebriation philosophy/theory after several drinks. Cheers.

Regards,
JustinG

[Marine HJ]

Kreuzer Lützow

Gents,

all correct what's said about the KM Linienschiffe - just these 4 (Schleswig Holstein, Hessen, Hannover, Schlesien) were existent - the others never been active cruisers again.
A question arose about the Kreuzer Lützow: I have seen it just once in a collection of an old gentleman who served on Zerstörer Bernd von Arnim and was sunk 4 times in WW2. From him I learned most of what of my knowledge about cap tallies. He died two years ago in the age of 91.

This ship of this tally was not the renamed Deutschland but the non-commisioned sister ship of the Hipper class which was sold unfinished to the Russians in 1939. Only because of the sale the name became vacant for the Deutschland in 1940.

Rgds

Dani

[Frank K]

Holy cow, Dani There is a Lützow tally, even if it's from the "original" ship.

They were early out to make a tally though? Believe it was more or less a hull that was sold and like you say never commisioned but there was already a tally.

[R.R.]

Hi Guys,

I consulted some shipmodellers friends from a brasilian plastic modellers forum I participate too about the "Panzerkreuzer" designation used for Deutschland class ships, and a interesting evidence raised. A friend posted two pictures from Deutschland in launch day with hand writed periode anotations with the "Panzerkreuze Deutschland" name.

Seems to me the "Panzerkreuze Admiral Scheer" cap tally was made before ship entered in operational service with the new "Panzerschiff" designation. I'll be not all suprise if similar cap tallies from Deutschland or Graf Spee will be find too.





Regards,

Ricardo

[R.R.]

Gents,

all correct what's said about the KM Linienschiffe - just these 4 (Schleswig Holstein, Hessen, Hannover, Schlesien) were existent - the others never been active cruisers again.
A question arose about the Kreuzer Lützow: I have seen it just once in a collection of an old gentleman who served on Zerstörer Bernd von Arnim and was sunk 4 times in WW2. From him I learned most of what of my knowledge about cap tallies. He died two years ago in the age of 91.

This ship of this tally was not the renamed Deutschland but the non-commisioned sister ship of the Hipper class which was sold unfinished to the Russians in 1939. Only because of the sale the name became vacant for the Deutschland in 1940.

Rgds

Dani

Hi Dani,

No doubts a very interesting cap tally, metalfaden made too I supose?

Best regards,

Ricardo

[Jock Auld]

Guys,

Bit off topic but might be of interest.

Has anyone a spare Koln Band for swap?

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/photos...ce-book-20466/

Posted as at date on WRF.

Regards

Jock

[Trance_Eyes]

Gents,

all correct what's said about the KM Linienschiffe - just these 4 (Schleswig Holstein, Hessen, Hannover, Schlesien) were existent - the others never been active cruisers again.
A question arose about the Kreuzer Lützow: I have seen it just once in a collection of an old gentleman who served on Zerstörer Bernd von Arnim and was sunk 4 times in WW2. From him I learned most of what of my knowledge about cap tallies. He died two years ago in the age of 91.

This ship of this tally was not the renamed Deutschland but the non-commisioned sister ship of the Hipper class which was sold unfinished to the Russians in 1939. Only because of the sale the name became vacant for the Deutschland in 1940.

Rgds

Dani

GOTT IN HIMMEL!! That Luetzow Tally is Superb!! The rarest of the Kreuzer class Tallies indeed!!
Thanks for sharing that Dani
Not sure we'll see many of those come up ever

As for the PanzerKreuzer Tally, well that seems a likely explanation on all accounts that it did exist but to whether it was pre, war or post period I guess it will remain a mystery although the fact that the name was only there in the very beginning seems to suggest perhaps pre war

You learn something new everyday and it was a pleasant surprise to see this new Tally!! Another one on the list of impossibles to collect!

Best
JustinC

[JustinG]

That is a first for me as well Dani. Quite a piece to have in your collection.
Means even more that you were able to obtain from a veteran who informed you a great deal regarding the cap tallies.
Thank you for sharing that information. Besides the Bernd Von Arnim, which other KM ships was he apart of; you said he was on 4 ships that were sunk during his wartime career?
Could you share any more information on this please?
Interesting details about the history of the muetzenbander are coming out. A very enjoyable study.

Regards,
JustinG

[Marine HJ]

Gent's,

didn't want to shock you or to bring the collector's community in disarray ...

Yes, he had the only one I know of. God knows where it is now, the collection came to Weitze and many of the RRR tallies didn't even hit the website but were sold upfront.

All the Panzerkreuzer tallies I had in hand (and all turned down) were suspisious to me - the "feel" was just not right, the black ribbon tougher, the embroidery very "hard". As Justin already had mentioned: all these Panzerkreuzer tallies reminded me of an early BM canteen (metallthread) tally.
I only know of Panzerkreuzer Graf Spee and Scheer tallies - never came across a Deutschland.

Yes, Ricardo. The Lützow was a Metall thread tally. In general they were pretty early with making tallies for the ships. Rumour says there were even some made for the Bismarck and apparently to be seen on original photographs of the "honor guard" when the hull was launched. The legend is that some of these ended up in the safe of Blohm & Voss.

Jock, let me sniff around for a little while and I will find a Kreuzer Köln tally, no problem.

Rgds

Dani

[Jock Auld]

Dani,

Thats very kind, I thought it would go well with the book.

Cheers

Jock

[JustinG]

Gent's,

didn't want to shock you or to bring the collector's community in disarray ...

Yes, he had the only one I know of. God knows where it is now, the collection came to Weitze and many of the RRR tallies didn't even hit the website but were sold upfront.

All the Panzerkreuzer tallies I had in hand (and all turned down) were suspisious to me - the "feel" was just not right, the black ribbon tougher, the embroidery very "hard". As Justin already had mentioned: all these Panzerkreuzer tallies reminded me of an early BM canteen (metallthread) tally.
I only know of Panzerkreuzer Graf Spee and Scheer tallies - never came across a Deutschland.

Yes, Ricardo. The Lützow was a Metall thread tally. In general they were pretty early with making tallies for the ships. Rumour says there were even some made for the Bismarck and apparently to be seen on original photographs of the "honor guard" when the hull was launched. The legend is that some of these ended up in the safe of Blohm & Voss.

Jock, let me sniff around for a little while and I will find a Kreuzer Köln tally, no problem.

Rgds

Dani

Well, that is interesting information regarding the tally feel/tactile response and the fact that there was not one seen yet for the "PanzerKreuzer Deutschland" this makes me more thinking that this might be a non-regulation tally and could skew the timeline of construction.

I feel more at ease thinking that the term Panzerschiff was the original choice and with the early date of launching, makes me think that the chance of being wartime produced a much smaller possibility.

If this was a finding or a potential store, I would expect to have had a release of 25 (the number that would have been in a mützenbander bundle)

Although, there are plenty of mystery and some changes that always amaze the collecting forum. For example, the Imperial Unterseeboosflottille Konstantinople was thought to be non-existant, then one collector unveiled a period one.

Regards,
JustinG

[R.R.]

Rumour says there were even some made for the Bismarck and apparently to be seen on original photographs of the "honor guard" when the hull was launched. The legend is that some of these ended up in the safe of Blohm & Voss.

Hi Dani,

I searched Bismarck launch ceremony's picture on the net and at none I can read what is writed on the crew cap tallies, but at somes seems to me was writed "Kriegsmarine". If there is a picture from honor guard with this tally legible, I'd like to see it.

Best Regards,

Ricardo

[Marine HJ]

Sorry for replying late, Ricardo. I have not seen this picture with my own eyes but I was told that a news paper has published this photo in the mid-80's when they reported something about the Bismarck mystery.

@JustinG: this old man was sunk two times in the Mediterranian on the ex-Italian TA boats. And the last time was on a Minesweeper, also in the "Medi".

Rgds

Dani

[JustinG]

Sorry for replying late, Ricardo. I have not seen this picture with my own eyes but I was told that a news paper has published this photo in the mid-80's when they reported something about the Bismarck mystery.

@JustinG: this old man was sunk two times in the Mediterranian on the ex-Italian TA boats. And the last time was on a Minesweeper, also in the "Medi".

Rgds

Dani

Fascinating history. Quite a war wrap sheet. Thanks.
Regards,
JustinG