Kriegsmarine Cap Tally question

[R.R.]

Hi,

I have two Kriegsmarine cap tallies, I named here Tally 1 and Tally 2.

Comparing both I make the observations bellow:

- There is a little lenght difference between both lettering;



- Both tallies have the "ghost effect" around lettering;



- There are some woven pattern differences between both tallies reverses;







- Tally 1 has a very soft ribbon material and stretch easy until 2 cm in it's lenght;

- Tally 2 has a little bit hard ribbon material and stretch with some difficulty until 2cm in it's lenght.

What can I conclude from these observations?

There are due two different makers or there is a red flag here?

There are kneews Kriegsmarine cap tallies copies with the caracteristics I pointed above?

May be I'm only paranoic with these questions but I'm very curious about these differences among then.

Regards,

Ricardo

[John R.]

The cap tallies produced during the period 1933-1945 had variation depending on which company produced them, maybe even in differences in how the loom was set up in a single company.

Do not worry about differences in the letters. You should concentrate on the threads on the reverse most importantly. Of course, there are other points to consider, but nothing is better than high resolution images of the letters on the reverse.

John

[JustinG]

Two really nice tallies.

Regards,
JustinG

[Frank K]

Both look good to me too. The variations is probably due to what John Robinson very well explains.

"- Tally 1 has a very soft ribbon material and stretch easy until 2 cm in it's lenght;

- Tally 2 has a little bit hard ribbon material and stretch with some difficulty until 2cm in it's lenght."

Tally 2 is the standard material for both gold thread and cotton. I have 3-4 of the Tally 1 type, all cotton.

Both types should be from the 33-45 period but not sure why the difference. Different manufacturers again......?

[R.R.]

You should concentrate on the threads on the reverse most importantly. Of course, there are other points to consider, but nothing is better than high resolution images of the letters on the reverse.

John

Hi John,

I think this thread is not only for me but for others beginners too and it's the better I can do with materials I have here. Only for a final conclusion about it, please, what do you think about do you can see in the images bellow, are both tallies corrects?













Regards,

Ricardo

[R.R.]

Both look good to me too. The variations is probably due to what John Robinson very well explains.

"- Tally 1 has a very soft ribbon material and stretch easy until 2 cm in it's lenght;

- Tally 2 has a little bit hard ribbon material and stretch with some difficulty until 2cm in it's lenght."

Tally 2 is the standard material for both gold thread and cotton. I have 3-4 of the Tally 1 type, all cotton.

Both types should be from the 33-45 period but not sure why the difference. Different manufacturers again......?

Hi Frank,

If I understand you correctly, you observed the same differences in another tallies you have. But I think Type 2 tally ribbon I have is more hard than metalfaden tallies ribbons I have here, seems to me it's not the same material used in this tallies.


Regards,

Ricardo

[Trance_Eyes]

Hi,

It comes down to different manufacturers. Both tallies are AOK IMO

I have tallies that are stretchy and also much firmer, its all in the thread and the stitching to determine a period tally.

Best wishes
JustinC

[R.R.]

Hi,

So, if I understand , the stretch capability is not the main authenticity deciding fact here, thread and stitching is much more important to determine it. I think this is the conclusion I needed to have about it.

Thank you all for your opinions.

Best Regards,

Ricardo

[Frank K]

Hi Frank,

If I understand you correctly, you observed the same differences in another tallies you have. But I think Type 2 tally ribbon I have is more hard than metalfaden tallies ribbons I have here, seems to me it's not the same material used in this tallies.


Regards,

Ricardo

Hi Ricardo,

Let me put it this way, all the KM tallies tally 1 and 2, that I have, feel and look the same way. Tally 1 all the same and tally 2 the same too. I was just talking loud to myself because I've always wondered about the very stretchable type 1 tally.

If you have a tally that is different again, well difficult to say? Like my friend JustinC says, go for the reverse. If the thread and stiching looks like KM period, there's a very good chance it's a KM period tally.

Only danger is the "Belfast" Scharnhorst tally and early Bundesmarine. Here you have to know the units and ships but you're probably already familiar with this .


Update: I'm a slow writer so you beat me but your conclusion is right.

[R.R.]

Hi Ricardo,

Let me put it this way, all the KM tallies tally 1 and 2, that I have, feel and look the same way. Tally 1 all the same and tally 2 the same too. I was just talking loud to myself because I've always wondered about the very stretchable type 1 tally.

If you have a tally that is different again, well difficult to say? Like my friend JustinC says, go for the reverse. If the thread and stiching looks like KM period, there's a very good chance it's a KM period tally.

Only danger is the "Belfast" Scharnhorst tally and early Bundesmarine. Here you have to know the units and ships but you're probably already familiar with this .


Update: I'm a slow writer so you beat me but your conclusion is right.

Hi Frank,

I think I understand you, but my only observations in this case is:

Ribbon in tally I named (Tally 1) is soft like the metalfaden tally ribbons, somethink flexible and soft like the silk. And ribbon in tally I named (Tally 2) is little bit less soft and flexible than the others, I suppose it has another materials composition in it's fibers. May be during the war makers has needed to change some scarce materials for similars ones.

Regards,

Ricardo

[Frank K]

Hi Frank,

I think I understand you, but my only observations in this case is:

Ribbon in tally I named (Tally 1) is soft like the metalfaden tally ribbons, somethink flexible and soft like the silk. And ribbon in tally I named (Tally 2) is little bit less soft and flexible than the others, I suppose it has another materials composition in it's fibers. May be during the war makers has needed to change some scarce materials for similars ones.

Regards,

Ricardo

Hi Ricardo,

Tally 1 is soft and stretches perhaps 1 to 1,5 cm on a full length tally. The ones I have are all cotton .

Tally 2 is less soft and are metallfaden and cottons. More rough and stretches 0,5 cm +/- for a full length. This is the standard material.

I don't believe it's due to the war as the ones I have are named ships and units and that stopped in 1940, after that it was just generic Kriegsmarine.

Also they're cotton thread so they were issued tallies and that means a lot fewer handed out compared to the metallfaden.