Collection of KM metal eagles and tally

[carlzeiss]

small collection of KM

Are the metal eagles all for headgear?

thanks for helping

[carlzeiss]

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[carlzeiss]

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[Norm F]

Are the metal eagles all for headgear?

Hi carlzeiss,

Your first two eagles in post #1 are cap eagles and your larger one with the horizontal main pin setup is a summer tunic breast eagle.

Your cap eagle with round cockade is for the Tellermütze and is 5 cm wide. The one on the right is the older 1st pattern eagle and it looks to me like it's the 5 cm wide type that was used on the officer's visor cap. If it's 3.7 cm wide then it's the 1st pattern pin for the Tellermütze which was smaller than the 2nd pattern eagle. The 2nd pattern pattern eagle was introduced in April, 1935 so the 1st pattern wasn't around long officially although they continued to be used for a few more years beyond that.

See these threads as well:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=614193
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=619612


Best regards,
---Norm

[carlzeiss]

F

Hi Norm

Thanks for all the Info , i am impressed

[JustinG]

The retaining pin on the KM officers metal breast eagle has F B on it. Could you post a better close up of this please. Never seen this marking before.

Regards,
JustinG

[John R.]

Hi carlzeiss,

Your first two eagles in post #1 are cap eagles and your larger one with the horizontal main pin setup is a summer tunic breast eagle.

Your cap eagle with round cockade is for the Tellermütze and is 5 cm wide. The one on the right is the older 1st pattern eagle and it looks to me like it's the 5 cm wide type that was used on the officer's visor cap. If it's 3.7 cm wide then it's the 1st pattern pin for the Tellermütze which was smaller than the 2nd pattern eagle. The 2nd pattern pattern eagle was introduced in April, 1935 so the 1st pattern wasn't around long officially although they continued to be used for a few more years beyond that.


---Norm

Norm,

So according to you and KM-Spain, there were two eagles for the sailor's Tellermütze:

A combined device with the eagle 5cm wide and a separate eagle and cockade arrangement where the eagle was 3.7cm?

You are saying above that after 4/1935 only the combined device was issued?

If your separate eagle is 5cm, it was for an officer's visor cap?

Not too clear on this right now.

John

[Norm F]

Not too clear on this right now.

John

Hi John,

The April, 1935 date was for the introduction of the 2nd pattern eagle, not the start of one-piece insignia.

For the Tellermütze:

pre-1934 - oval Reichsmarine eagle medallion only
March 24, 1934 - round cockade plus 1st pattern national eagle
April 2, 1935 - round cockade plus 2nd pattern national eagle

Although the 1st pattern eagle was official only for one year, it continued to be used for a few more years overlapping with the introduction of the 2nd pattern eagle.

Manufacturerers then at some point started combining the cockade and the eagle into a more convenient one-piece insignia, but when exactly I don't know. My Dad's were all two-piece and I had initially assumed the one-piece was post-1937 but then I saw a one-piece with a 1st pattern eagle in the other thread which suggested an earlier production.

Now, for sizes:
Tellermütze - 1st pattern eagle 3.7 cm; 2nd pattern eagle 5 cm
Schirmmütze (visor cap) - 1st pattern eagle 5 cm; 2nd pattern eagle 6.5 cm

So the 2nd pattern eagle was a wider design. Also the 1st pattern eagle was very shallowly stamped with only a small rim vs. the 2nd pattern which was stamped to a 4 mm depth.

I'll post photos when I get a chance, to illustrate.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

OK, good information Norm.

By the way, the tally at the top of this thread is fine--gold wire period example.

John

[km-spain]

Hello all, agree with Norn, there where two diferent patterns for Tellermütze - 1st pattern eagle 3.7 cm and 2nd pattern eagle 5 cm wide. You can find both patterns combined with cockade, IMO used for white Teller tops, and separated from cockade, used for blue toped Teller's. Anyway sure taht both were used with any kind of top.

I only have seen 2 early pattern Teller eagle, one combined and the other only the eagle, along my collector's years, fortunatelly both currently in my collection. You can see them in the above links.

As Norm has said, there were also two different patters of visor caps eagles, 1st pattern eagle 5 cm and 2nd pattern eagle 6.5 cm.

[John R.]

So the 5cm Tellermütze eagle was a different eagle design than the 5cm visor cap eagle?

John

[John R.]

You can find both patterns combined with cockade, IMO used for white Teller tops, and separated from cockade, used for blue toped Teller's. Anyway sure taht both were used with any kind of top.

I am not following you on this Eduardo. I have seen Graf Spee white and blue tops all missing the eagle. So unknown if it was the 3.7 cm eagle or not.

Are you saying that both the 3.7cm and 5cm eagle has been found on the combined eagle and cockade setup?

And that the 3.7 cm and 5 cm eagle can also be found on the separate arrangement?

John

[km-spain]

Sure that with some pics we follow this better ...


Visor cap 1st pattern eagle - 5 cm

Tellermütze 2nd pattern eagle - 5 cm

[km-spain]

First row: Visor cap 1st pattern - 5 cm //////////// Tellermütze 1st pattern - 3.7 cm

Second row: Visor cap 2nd pattern - 6.5 cm ///////// Tellermütze 2nd pattern - 5 cm

[km-spain]

Jonh, on your post.

I am not following you on this Eduardo. I have seen Graf Spee white and blue tops all missing the eagle. So unknown if it was the 3.7 cm eagle or not.

Is not rare to find eagles that is clear that were a combined eagle-cockade model that was brohken at any time, so many of these were finally used as separate arrangement.

Are you saying that both the 3.7cm and 5cm eagle has been found on the combined eagle and cockade setup?

Yes, I've seen both, the first pattern only onces and the second patter many times

And that the 3.7 cm and 5 cm eagle can also be found on the separate arrangement?

Yes, same than combined

John