Kriegsmarine NCOs/Officers Wreath&Cockade

[Andy C.]

Picked this one up two months ago, what do you fellows think??

[Andy C.]

2

[km-spain]

Andy, nice metalic wreath versión . IMO for NCO and not for officer.

[David48]

I agree original 1935 pattern, looks to be pre...war quality.

[Norm F]

I agree original 1935 pattern, looks to be pre...war quality.

Any other thoughts on the time period? I would have thought metal would be later wartime? What suggests pre-war?

Best regards,
---Norm

[David48]

Any other thoughts on the time period? I would have thought metal would be later wartime? What suggests pre-war?

Best regards,
---Norm

Inner wreath cutouts, wreath and rosette appear affixed to a fabric covered metal plate by prongs.
For more information see Die Kriegs-Marine Uniforms and Traditions Volume I page 230
by John R. Angolia and Adolf Schlicht.

Regards,
David

[Norm F]

Inner wreath cutouts, wreath and rosette appear affixed to a fabric covered metal plate by prongs.
For more information see Die Kriegs-Marine Uniforms and Traditions Volume I page 230
by John R. Angolia and Adolf Schlicht.

Regards,
David

Hi David,

The way I interpret the quote from KM regulations in the section of Angolia that you reference is that these metal insignia were against regulations until Aug 1940 after which time they were allowed only if embroidered examples were unavailable do the scarcity of human resources. One could postulate that companies were making them earlier against regulations, but pre-war production seems like a stretch. Having said that I'll have to go back and look at what catalog images we have to date, if any.

Best regards,
---Norm

[David48]

Hi David,

The way I interpret the quote from KM regulations in the section of Angolia that you reference is that these metal insignia were against regulations until Aug 1940 after which time they were allowed only if embroidered examples were unavailable do the scarcity of human resources. One could postulate that companies were making them earlier against regulations, but pre-war production seems like a stretch. Having said that I'll have to go back and look at what catalog images we have to date, if any.

Best regards,
---Norm

Hello, Norm I was going on the authors statement page 230 bottom quality of work would suggest a pre...war speciment. so until a photo of one beying worn pre...war is found 1940 it is. Regards David.

[Jean-Claude]

A set of metal insignia (eagle and wreath) mounted on cloth using the exact same wreath (with cut outs) was posted here recently by a member. Funny thing is that both the wreath and the eagle of that metal set were designed to simulate embroidery (as if embroidery was the only official form). Even more recently I saw a metal breast eagle on a dealer site also mounted on cloth but not of the more usual "summer uniform removable" style with 3 pins as sometime seen on cloth backing but rather with identical "false embroidery" pattern as shown in this thread and in previous thread showing matched metal cap set mounted on cloth. My german is very poor but description of breast eagle (which was larger but a perfect match to cap eagle design) did mention it was for NCO wear but of french manufacture.

Not sure how reliable this description/info is but if it is it would lend some weight to Norm's views that it was not an early design if the french produced these (during the occupation)

Beautiful insignia no matter who made or when (as long as pre 45 )

Regards

JC

[Norm F]

A set of metal insignia (eagle and wreath) mounted on cloth using the exact same wreath (with cut outs) was posted here recently by a member.
...

Here's the thread with that other example:

Kriegsmarine - metal eagle for NCO visor

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

...
Even more recently I saw a metal breast eagle on a dealer site also mounted on cloth but not of the more usual "summer uniform removable" style with 3 pins as sometime seen on cloth backing but rather with identical "false embroidery" pattern as shown in this thread and in previous thread showing matched metal cap set mounted on cloth. My german is very poor but description of breast eagle (which was larger but a perfect match to cap eagle design) did mention it was for NCO wear but of french manufacture.
...

And here's that eagle from Weitze's site with the description:

"Kriegsmarine Brustadler für Unteroffiziere es handelt sich hier um eine französische Fertigung, Metallausführung,rückseitig fehlt ein Splint. Für das blaue Jacket."

[RonR]

Wreath with cut outs on a NCO upgraded visor to add to the discussion.....


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[RonR]

And a close up of a non-pierced wreath...........


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[Norm F]

Thanks Ron! Great examples and that fabulous visor cap really provides context.

Best regards,
---Norm

[RonR]

Norm,

Thanks to you for the kind words!

Here is another example of a Non-pierced wreath on the removable band of another visor........


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