KM Breast Eagle

[Norm F]

Bingo!

Ah! I found a thread on GCA which makes the link between "M in diamond" and J.C. Maedicke.
This photo of a button box which contained the "M in diamond" buttons, said to have come originally from a WAF member. I hope it's okay to repost here.
So these marks apparently appear on KM summer breast eagles, Heer gorgets, Krim shields and KM buttons at least, and the Maedicke RZM M5 (Uniformeneffekten) code is M5/187

[Norm F]

verschlussmarke

And a bit more on J.C. Maedicke is gleaned from this Verschlussmarke (sealing stamp). Button and Military Effects factory of J.C. Maedicke, founded 1795, purveyor to the court of His Imperial Majesty. Berlin. Spandauer Street, No. 46.

[JustinG]

So the I.C Maedicke is pehaps a mis-stamp and didn't for some reason cover the lower loop of the "J"?

Really quite interesting. I haven't seen a gorget with the "Diamond M" before, where would that mark be located, on the chain, or on the body reverse?

I thought I saw one a long while ago and it was for a Heer officer Kokarde. Maybe I can try to find it....

Thanks for tracking down some fine items Norm
Top stuff.

Regards,
JustinG

[Norm F]

So the I.C Maedicke is pehaps a mis-stamp and didn't for some reason cover the lower loop of the "J"?
...

Hi Justin,

I don't think the I.C. is a mistake. In German the J sounds like a "ya" sound, and I think some names beginning in J would be spelt interchangably with a J or an I. Furthermore, in the Gothic script they were even the same letter.

The button examples marked I.C. are much earlier, from the 1800's. I found a listing in 1862 of a Paul Maywald in "Verein Junger Kaufleute von Berlin" (Association of young merchants of Berlin) from the firm of "I.C. Maedicke" but in Gothic the I is the same as a J. I've copied and pasted the pertinent bits together and attached here.

Regards,
---Norm

[JustinG]

My friend, I am always impressed by your postings.
You seem to have the magic touch in having items available and the memory to locate where you find different facts and such. Always impressed.!
This has been an awesome thread. Really a good one showing some good things dealing with the manufacturing firm Maedicke.

Very very well done!

JustinG

[Norm F]

Thinks Justin. I enjoy looking into the details on items and their histories, sort of brings them alive -- explains why I also like genealogy.

Anyway, regarding the validity of this type of metal breast eagle, there's a thread in Militaria Fundforum which shows the identical eagle type as part of a grouping from an estate sale, and the recollection of a member seeing some ground dug examples as well. Added to that, a thread in GCA which shows the back of one sold by Detlev with a sailor's name scratched into it, I'm pretty confident these aren't fantasy pieces and really were produced in the time. Doesn't mean they couldn't be copied too, but their relative abundance and reasonable price makes them less likely targets I think.

Funnily enough, on the MFF thread, they called the maker mark a W! I'd never of thought to look at it upside-down myself.

I believe they are aluminum with an electroplated gilding -- the same materials/methods used on Maedicke's KM buttons by the way.

Cheers.
---Norm

[flinteruk]

Maedicke mark on Gorget

Hi
I know its an old thread but here is the mark I have on a Gorget I am selling for everyones further information. The mark is in the middle tab
Regards to all

[jack1]

And has anyone seen an example with provenance? The very fact that some are marked "M in diamond" and others are marked Schwerin which look mighty similar makes me still undecided on their authenticity.
Cheers.
---Norm[/QUOTE]

Yes norm the km on top, this was a vet bring back for sure.

[Norm F]

Yes norm the km on top, this was a vet bring back for sure.

Yes, well established back in early 2010 when this thread was posted.

Best regards,
---Norm

[jack1]

Thanks for the lead, Justin. So from a quick search now I see this M in diamond is seen on some Krim shields and the working theory is it represents J.C. Maedicke, Berlin, who also makes belt buckles.
Although unconfirmed so far, it's interesting that these eagles so closely resemble those marked Schwerin, another Berlin firm.
Regards,
---Norm

Firms in the same area outsourced to one another, this is confirmed fact by Mr. Jo Rivett, the M will be J.C. Maedicke bottom die and Schwerin probably supplied the impression die and shearing die.

[Jean-Claude]

Firms in the same area outsourced to one another, this is confirmed fact by Mr. Jo Rivett, the M will be J.C. Maedicke bottom die and Schwerin probably supplied the impression die and shearing die.

Sorry to disagree but even though the general appearance is similar the Maedicke birds (Maedicke produced 2 different variants of their aluminum summer uniform birds both in gold and silver with different dies and a different pin) were not made using Schwerin impression and shearing dies because the designs dont match. Furthermore the mm on Maedicke birds is in relief while Schwerin used a stamped (incuse?) mark that is sometime seen in other locations (eg the left wing) so they didnt share a bottom/back die either.

Attached are picts of both the earlier (IMO) "thin pin" Maedicke birds and their later bethren with the thick pin (similar to the Schwerin pin) as well the Schwerin summer bird they are being compared to

Best

JC

[jack1]

Absolutely you are right to disagree,all I was trying to put over is that manufactures close to each other did outsource and share tools but maybe not in this instance. This has been proven a fact with the NSDAP Badge with period information by a Mr. Jo Rivett.
I have 2 of these breast eagles my self one KM and one Heer.

I think these may be fake.

[jack1]

UM 1st january 1937

UM 1st january 1937

[Norm F]

Both are correct in their observations. As Jack says, sometimes different makers received obverse dies from the same die supplier (for KM badges this is more commonly seen in the western cities than in Berlin), but as J-C has pointed out the Maedicke and Schwerin eagles are two different obverse designs.

That doesn’t rule out the possibility that the same die and tool maker provided both manufacturers, but it does rule out sister obverse dies from the same master.

Best regards,
—-Norm

[L11-VELASCO]

And finally, here are two KM buttons with the "M in diamond" mark. Note the 2 small stars flanking the year. From what I can see all these "M in diamond" buttons have the 2 small stars, reminiscent of Maedecke's mark. Sure the occasional Assman or FLL button has stars but in a different arrangement and most of their buttons actually don't.
Circumstantial evidence is all I can find so far but can be summarized as this:
1) The similarity is noted between marked Maedecke imperial buttons and leather tabs, and "M in diamond" KM buttons, both with the 2 small stars.
2) The fact that Maedecke is a Berlin firm and the the "M in diamond" summer breast eagle looks so similar to that of another Berlin firm, namely Schwerin (but bearing in mind we haven't yet seen examples of these with clear provenance to the period).

If anyone has any other "M in diamond" marks to cast light upon this topic please post.

Hi Norm

Im posting here this button:is a Maedicke maker too



Thanks
Fernando