Kriegsmarine/Reichsmarine/Imperial/Bundesmarine Cap Tallies

[Hirschstein]

lovely albums

when in doubt try .......... : http://www.admiral-scheer.de/index.html

E ~ the info within is invaluable on this ship

[Trance_Eyes]

Good Luck with the Eugen Tally mate, I only know of 1 around and John has it I think, not sure how many have ever come up for sale and then there would be the $$$$$...

John maybe able to elaborate further on the rarity of this Tally......

[JustinG]

I have had to pay much more for many of mine. Around 180-220 Euro for the named ship tallies.
Price is what the price someone can get is I guess.

Good luck with the Eugen tally.. That is one rare tally.

I am also looking for rare tallies: the Schnellbootsflotille ones.

We all have our far out dreams and such.

Best of luck,
JustinG

[John R.]

There has been a great deal of controversy surrounding this tally for many years as we know.

Other Prinz Eugen photos that exist, all indicating that the sailor is wearing the photo post end of the war.

However, as far as I know, only tallies in cellon exist with one exception in metall.

John

[John R.]

There is no question the tallies were issued to the crew on 5 Jan 1946 or within days of that date as indicated by this page in this book. It is in German, so members that have interest will just have to translate it on their own. John

[John R.]

Page in book referring to the issuance of the tallies (muetzenbander) to the crew to give them pride in themselves before the arrival of the US crew.

The interest in the US in this ship was primarily the high pressure boiler system that used automatic boiler controls. This system was not in use in the US Navy, but the US Navy wanted to examine this form of steam system for future classes of US warships. This is indeed what happened as all guided missile ships over the next 30 years built by the US Navy used a derivative of this high pressure system.

For those of you that are not marine engineers, when pressure goes up, the turbine size goes down, allowing more room to stow below decks large ordnance, like surface to air missiles, and, in theory, smaller engineering crews due to the automatic controls. In reality, this is not happened as these were very complicated systems. In fact, Prinz Eugen herself could not operate these boilers at full pressure, but again, a technical discussion not related to tallies.

The US Navy was also interested in the ammunition used in Prinz Eugen and other aspects of the ship, but primarily, it was the steam proplulsion plant that was of interest. John

[Jeff V]

There are plenty of collectors, myself included, who believe these Prinz Eugen tallies are absolutely made before the war ended and in fact were made before the switch to Kriegsmarine tallies at the beginning of the war. These tallies were never issued until the war ended. The idea that these were made after the war in several different threads just so the crew could wear their choice of wire or cellon on the voyage to the USA I find hard to believe. Anyway, I await the ironclad proof from the other gentleman. At any rate these tallies were worn by Eugen crewman either way and are super rare. As John said "good luck finding one."

The "Harry" referred to is not the one you are thinking of. He was a German collector.

best wishes,

jeff

[CSForrester]

In accordance to the regulations of summer 1938 all cap tallies ordered by the Kriegsmarine ( Marinebekleidungsamt Kiel or Wilhelmshaven) should have a length of 116-120cm and the letters should be woven from artificial yellow silk (cotton although is not the correct word, artificial silk is correct.) So, if tallies for Prinz Eugen were ordered in that time, they should not be longer and not woven from metal wire.

To be clear, cotton is artifical silk and cellon was a private purchase material and has been wrongly called artifical silk.

The decision to use the artificial silk (cotton) had two reasons:
1) to save copper, silver and gold
2) to make the production faster.
To produce a tally with metal thread letters on a Jacquard-weaving-machine took much more time, because the metal thread was very fragile and often torn off.
Cap tallies for new units did not fall from the sky, they were born with an order from the Reichsmarineamt/Oberkommando der Kriegsmarine with an order, the so called "Aufstellungsbefehl für den Schiffsstamm Kreuzer ..." or "Befehl zur Bildung eines Schiffsstammes für den Zerstörer .....".
This order included until September 1939 the sentence "Die Besatzung trägt ein Mützenband mit der Aufschrift "Kreuzer ............".
These orders to bild a permanent staff for a coming unit was published either in the Marineverordnungsblatt or Stationstagesbefehl Nordsee/Ostsee.
The RMA/OKM gave after publishing ot these orders instructions to the other involved institutions, Marinepersonalamt, Marinebekleidungsamt, Marineunterkunftsamt ............. to prepare the resources for the complete unit. That was the moment the Marinebekleidungsamt ordered the first lot of tallies for the unit.
When the tallies received from the producer in Wilhelmshaven or Kiel they were checked and packed in small paper envelopes to 10 tallies each and sealed with a paper seal and taken into the inventory of the Marinebekleidungsamt. Then it was necessary for the new formed staff to order a concret number of tallies from the Marinebekleidungsamt.

I have copies of all Marineverordnungsblatt 1871-1945, all Stationstagesbefehle and also the survived archivals from Reichsmarineamt/OKM concerning insigna and tallies. Spend several weeks in the Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv in Freiburg to get them.
My knowledge is:
the last tallies ordered for a ship were Zerstörer Anton Schmitt, exceptionally worn on the day of commission into service on September 22nd 1939, and the last ordered for a land-based unit for the 7.Marineartillerieabteilung, permanent staff formed in August 1939.

I hope this elementary knowledge is not to boring, i think it is necessary. I will pick out some interesting orders from the sources mentioned above this weekend and post scans.

Regards
Markus Bodeux

[John R.]

In accordance to the regulations of summer 1938 all cap tallies ordered by the Kriegsmarine ( Marinebekleidungsamt Kiel or Wilhelmshaven) should have a length of 116-120cm and the letters should be woven from artificial yellow silk. So, i tallies for Prinz Eugen were ordered in that time, they should not be longer and not woven from metal wire.
The decision to use the artificial silk had two reasons:
1) to save copper, silver and gold
2) to make the production faster.
To produce a tally with metal thread letters on a Jacquard-weaving-machine took much more time, because the metal thread was very fragile and often torn off.
Cap tallies for new units did not fall from the sky, they were born with an order from the Reichsmarineamt/Oberkommando der Kriegsmarine with an order, the so called "Aufstellungsbefehl für den Schiffsstamm Kreuzer ..." or "Befehl zur Bildung eines Schiffsstammes für den Zerstörer .....".
This order included until September 1939 the sentence "Die Besatzung trägt ein Mützenband mit der Aufschrift "Kreuzer ............".
These orders to bild a permanent staff for a coming unit was published either in the Marineverordnungsblatt or Stationstagesbefehl Nordsee/Ostsee.
The RMA/OKM gave after publishing ot these orders instructions to the other involved institutions, Marinepersonalamt, Marinebekleidungsamt, Marineunterkunftsamt ............. to prepare the resources for the complete unit. That was the moment the Marinebekleidungsamt ordered the first lot of tallies for the unit.
When the tallies received from the producer in Wilhelmshaven or Kiel they were checked and packed in small paper envelopes to 10 tallies each and sealed with a paper seal and taken into the inventory of the Marinebekleidungsamt. Then it was necessary for the new formed staff to order a concret number of tallies from the Marinebekleidungsamt.

I have copies of all Marineverordnungsblatt 1871-1945, all Stationstagesbefehle and also the survived archivals from Reichsmarineamt/OKM concerning insigna and tallies. Spend several weeks in the Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv in Freiburg to get them.
My knowledge is:
the last tallies ordered for a ship were Zerstörer Anton Schmitt, exceptionally worn on the day of commission into service on September 22nd 1939, and the last ordered for a land-based unit for the 7.Marineartillerieabteilung, permanent staff formed in August 1939.

I hope this elementary knowledge is not to boring, i think it is necessary. I will pick out some interesting orders from the sources mentioned above this weekend and post scans.

Regards
Markus Bodeux

Thank you very much Markus. The information is far from elementary and most necessary to build a foundation for the understanding of the issuance of German cap tallies.

The information is fascinating and not boring. As I have mentioned often on this forum, which is primarily a badge forum, we must understand die flaws, reverse setups, variations, you name it, to really be able to appreciate the badge we are studying. This is not a "hobby" for those not willing to be a professional collector with all that entails.

Of note, in the badge area, we are still learning and never will "know it all" even for the most studious of collectors. The hobby evolves and if you review the posts from the beginning of the forurm to now, you will see this progression of knowledge. In the case of KM abzeichen, you can readily see the culmination of this knowledge in books like Torpedo Los, Gordon Williamson's upcoming book on the rest of the KM badges, Sascha Weber's mine badge book and his current effort to compile a book on KM badges in both German and English.

I have left out any other authors, but many of us have those books, and I do not have the inclination to list every single one--however, you do see the evolution of knowlege that has provided the basis for these books as the years have gone by.

All that said, even with the latest books, soon as it is published, something new or different pops up so an author can only go with what he knows at the moment of time at which he sends his manuscript to the publisher. We as collectors must make notations in those books or use our own addendums to indicate changes of knowledge so that we are able to keep up to date. Mike Tucker's book on German Warbadges is an example of what I am talking about.

Markus and Bernd, your research over many years is appreciated by everybody on this forum and your willingness to share that information in advance of your book is very generous.

I want to make clear to the other collectors that that artificial yellow silk is the same as the word cellon.

We all look forward to the scans as you post them.

John

[John R.]

My knowledge is:
the last tallies ordered for a ship were Zerstörer Anton Schmitt, exceptionally worn on the day of commission into service on September 22nd 1939, and the last ordered for a land-based unit for the 7.Marineartillerieabteilung, permanent staff formed in August 1939.

Markus,

I would like to clarify the point that it is fairly well known that certain sea units continued to wear the named tally into the beginning stages of the war, like at Narvik, until such time the tally was replaced with the "kriegsmarine" tally.

I would also like to clarify that certain shore based organizations used the "named" tally of that organization throughout the war if there was no security risk involved. Perhaps like training training cadres, etc.

John

[CSForrester]

Thanks John,

you are right, it took a long time until summer 1940 until all units were complete supplied with the new "Kriegsmarine". But it was forbidden to produce any other tallies in that time.
But with yellow artificial silk - i do not mean Cellon ! The yellow artificial silk was used since 1938 for all official ordered tallies and it is a kind of regenerated viskose to replace genuine silk. Cellon is a synthetic material from the base of petroleum or fluished gas from coal like Perlon, Nylon .......
Cellon did not appear before 1943/1944 and has a metallic glitter. It was never used for official ordered tallies. Examples will follow.

Thanks and regards
Markus

[Norm F]

Hear, hear

Thank you very much Markus. The information is far from elementary and most necessary to build a foundation for the understanding of the issuance of German cap tallies...

The information is fascinating and not boring...

Markus and Bernd, your research over many years is appreciated by everybody on this forum and your willingness to share that information in advance of your book is very generous...

We all look forward to the scans as you post them.
John

Hear hear! This is tremendous background research and greatly appreciated by the collecting and historical community.
I wish we could expand this use of detailed research methods from the original MV and OTB/MTB to other topics as well, including the issuance and wear of all awards, most notably the KM Schützenschnur. Angolia/Schicht use such sources but more detailed essays with original quotations from the military publications would be invaluable.
Many thanks to Markus and Bernd.
Regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Hear hear! This is tremendous background research and greatly appreciated by the collecting and historical community.
I wish we could expand this use of detailed research methods from the original MV and OTB/MTB to other topics as well, including the issuance and wear of all awards, most notably the KM Schützenschnur. Angolia/Schicht use such sources but more detailed essays with original quotations from the military publications would be invaluable.
Many thanks to Markus and Bernd.
Regards,
---Norm

Gordon Williamson will be using the original war badge regulations in his new book on KM badges. John

[CSForrester]

we come closer .........
Cotton and artificial silk means the same material. The yellow thread is not pure cotton, it is regenerated to give the cotton a little bit gloss when the tallie is new and to make the surface of the thread flat (? german "glatt") to let the thread run in the machine. So there are at least three materials.
The black ribbon is also made from a special treated cotton and an other chapter. All the ribbons used for the official cotton/artf.silk tallies are elastic, you can expand them for one or two centimeters.
Here below
1. Kreuzer Prinz Eugen printed
2. Kreuzer Prinz Eugen with letters from Cellon
3. an other with letters from cotton/artf. silk
No better pics at the moment, they are on Bernds PC, we work at his home.

Regards
Markus

[John R.]

Excellent photo provided.

Then we are at the original assumption of three threads and I am repeating it here just so as not to confuse the other viewers.

Three materials for the letters:

1. Cotton (artificial silk) (baumwoll)

2. Cellon

3. Gold wire (goldener metall)

Two basic materials for the black tally itself. Certainly the cotton thread tallies have much lighter and more delicate "black" tally material compared to the stiffer material used with cellon or gold wire. Or if not different material, different treated material.

John