SS pith helmets

[Dmv]

Hello, what do you guys think about these?
They have flat prongs and are both marked jfs 43

[PMan]

Nope!

[billbert]

IF Bill GRIST helmets to be believed (I DO)..then are not the shield just posted the same??Billbert
based on that i d say they are good and rare..

[Dmv]

one for, one against...

Peter, could you please explain why you think they are no good?

[Edelweiss]

Wow, speak about an old thread !

one for, one against...
Peter, could you please explain why you think they are no good?

Well, several characteristics do not match the examples of original loose insignas sets pictured higher in the thread, to speak about those only : they all show very specific points in common that one can't find here, especially for this maker. And no, to my eyes at least, they're not the same as the ones on Bill's pith.

BTW, with the years came the french-made pith I was speaking about earlier, a new camera and thus new pics of the helmet I was showing at the beginning of this thread. I will post updated pics here today, as it almost looks like a different helmet :

[Edelweiss]

Left side :

[Edelweiss]

Another :

[Edelweiss]

Last one, of the liner that wasn't shown yet (seems I forgot it then) :

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hello

Very interesting thread even if dated abit. Not to rain on this parade But the shields on Bills example Post #10 look not original to the helmet, look at the size of the holes where the pins pop through on the underside, they are twice the size of the prongs and round too ? The shields look good just replaced. This is a Herr Pith style originally, the ss used the ones similar to the LW. Its possible its legit but am doubtful. Post # 30 looks like what i would look for.

Murdocks post #73 is looking real good as an ss version with original shields, notice the holes from the underside, much tighter to the prongs. Its possible that the ss used Herr & Italian Tropenhelms if shortages occured.

Have added a pic of a Herr Tropenhelm signed by GI's likely from the 45th.
Will not help in the discussion but as this Div is mentioned several times in this interesting thread, thought why not.

with regards
Tim

[afrikasandman]

I would love to get a hold of one of these pith helmets or at the very least a set or two of the shields! Thanks for all the postings everyone! Matt

[Edelweiss]

Hello

Very interesting thread even if dated abit. Not to rain on this parade But the shields on Bills example Post #10 look not original to the helmet, look at the size of the holes where the pins pop through on the underside, they are twice the size of the prongs and round too ?

Not to rain on your brand new post in this "dated" thread Tim, but regarding this observation I would inquire on how the holes on pith helmets were made at the factory.

The shields look good just replaced. This is a Herr Pith style originally

Right, this is a "Heer pith style". But at the same time, one have to admit that - shields apart - the differences in "style" between a Heer pith and a SS pith are much more than... subtle ?

the ss used the ones similar to the LW.

A very interesting point this time. Could you please provide your sources regarding this info ? A SS vet report ? Or an item with a rock-solid provenance ? As period pics, like it was said, are more than scarce regarding the subject of this thread, I doubt the information could have come this way ? Moreover, even in this case, I'm afraid I would have some trouble in making the difference between a LW modified SS pith and a Heer modified one on a period photo... (differences in "style" between LW and Heer piths are also quite subtle IMO)

Its possible its legit but am doubtful. Post # 30 looks like what i would look for.

Sorry, but I'm again in a kind of trouble trying to find some specific differences between the helmet in post # 30 and Bill's helmet (except if a damaged and worn condition is what you would look for).

Murdocks post #73 is looking real good as an ss version with original shields, notice the holes from the underside, much tighter to the prongs.

Given all that was said about original an fake SS shields till now, I would go deeper than the holes in the pith, or the look of the prong's bending to judge an SS pith helmet. But that's just me.

Its possible that the ss used Herr & Italian Tropenhelms if shortages occured.

Right, from period pics and a couple of items in this thread, I also tend to believe this could have been done.

Have added a pic of a Herr Tropenhelm signed by GI's likely from the 45th.
Will not help in the discussion but as this Div is mentioned several times in this interesting thread, thought why not.

with regards
Tim

Right, won't help in the discussion, but nice Heer pith anyway (I remember it well).

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Chris

Will try to answer your excellent points. And although dated, very good information already given here before i ever saw it.

Not to rain on your brand new post in this "dated" thread Tim, but regarding this observation I would inquire on how the holes on pith helmets were made at the factory.

The shields were just stuck in with prior holes being made previously, in fact that is the one area that there seems to be not so much consistancy. Wartime photos show a somewhat loose application in where the shields are placed, have posted my example of the Herr Pith. Notice the location of the shields from side to side, one is quite lower than the other. We have also seen a few with the shields applied on the "wrong" side in both Herr and SS. So would say that the exact location of the shields was not a high priority. Also note the exit point on the inside, how tight the holes are to the prongs indicative of original shields... replaced ones typically have a larger hole than the prongs would make...like post # 10.

Right, this is a "Heer pith style". But at the same time, one have to admit that - shields apart - the differences in "style" between a Heer pith and a SS pith are much more than... subtle ?

Agreed there are only minor differences. Would say the differences are easier to spot than between an SS and LW pith however.

A very interesting point this time. Could you please provide your sources regarding this info ? A SS vet report ? Or an item with a rock-solid provenance ? As period pics, like it was said, are more than scarce regarding the subject of this thread, I doubt the information could have come this way ? Moreover, even in this case, I'm afraid I would have some trouble in making the difference between a LW modified SS pith and a Heer modified one on a period photo... (differences in "style" between LW and Heer piths are also quite subtle IMO)

Agree agian, while hard to tell apart in period photos the Herr Pith has a darker leather edging of the brim, more green in color while the LW is a much lighter tan color see post #69. The chinstraps tend to follow this too with the LW being much lighter than the Herr chinstrap. The piece of material hiding the central seam is wider on the Herr than the LW but that is really hard to tell from photos and needs a hands on to really be sure.

In the Kurtz (Schiffer) book AfrikaKorps page # 215 there is an SS Pith that looks very close to Murdocks example on post # 73 with the lighter leather edging and chinstrap.

Sorry, but I'm again in a kind of trouble trying to find some specific differences between the helmet in post # 30 and Bill's helmet (except if a damaged and worn condition is what you would look for).

Bills fine helmet has the darker edging and chinstrap, Post # 30 is the lighter version. Really like Bills helmets interior sweat stains and used condition by the way

Given all that was said about original an fake SS shields till now, I would go deeper than the holes in the pith, or the look of the prong's bending to judge an SS pith helmet. But that's just me.

Will stay away from the shields validity as am not qualified to make the call on the shields themselves, just that the large holes where the prongs pop through is more indicative of shields that have been replaced at some point. Including during the War itself.

Right, from period pics and a couple of items in this thread, I also tend to believe this could have been done.

Just found a photo in DM's great work RAA page # 146 shows the DAK being re-issued Piths in early '42 and one is Italian for sure (with the shields reversed) and the other German made ones may not even have shields yet. (really hard to tell from the photo).
The 8th Pz regt and 33 Recon Bn 15th Pz Div, DAK were issued Dutch Piths do to the shortage of German made Tropenhelms and the rapid need for deployment to Afrika in April '41. So would expect the same for the SS if shortages arose.

Right, won't help in the discussion, but nice Heer pith anyway (I remember it well). [/QUOTE]

Thanks for the compliment and will post a couple more pics of the shield location and underside where the prongs poke through.

with regards
Tim

[Tim O'Keefe]

Eagle which is an Assman (thanks for info Matt)

[Tim O'Keefe]

underside

[Edelweiss]

Hi Tim,

I appreciate your comments, and won't reply to your huge post with another big one. Anyway, I would just suggest to take a closer look at some of the numerous pith helmets that were posted in the WAF, spot the similarities, but also the differences they often show, and - quite simply - get a bit more familiar with them.

The intend of this thread was to bring some information on SS pith helmets, a subject on which too little was (is) known. Now we're taking a direction in which people may think that a factory would have changed leather colors on the brim's edges (!) for the helmets that would have been issued to the Heer, LW, SS or KM, or that the shields were applied without a prior stamping-out of three holes on each side of the helmet : that's wrong. About differences between WH, LW, KM piths, one could possibly talk about the lining colors, but not only it would be a bit "off topic" here, but also several specific threads were dedicated to this very subject in the past.

I'm afraid it can be dangerous and time consuming (as you can see today), to build erroneous theories from things picked up in a couple of books, some quick and too superficial observations, and a few points taken from one and only item. In the present case, this lead you to wrong conclusions and thus wrong comments on pith helmets in general, and on the item you commented in particular.

Now, I'm pleased to see your 1st model WH pith again here, but it was already posted in his own thread, and is a bit off topic in this very one. I also understand you'd like to go further on the points and observations you made above, but in order to help keeping this discussion on its tracks, it could be better to make another specific thread, which could be an interesting one to boot.

Best,