SS pith helmets

[Edelweiss]

And here's a pair illustrating an article of the french "Militaria Magazine" about the 16th SS Pz. Gren. Div. "Reichsführer SS" in Corsica ; the legend says that "the shields are made of aluminium (top helmet) or zinc (helmet at the bottom)". No info about the prongs.
So... a third (aluminium) variant or ????

An amusing story reported to me by a good friend of mine, living in Paris : around 25 years ago, a famous (for militaria collectors) seller at the St Ouen's flea market offered several SS piths for sale ; according to the seller, they were "found in Corsica". Even at that time, nobody believed the story, and I guess he had a hard time selling them...

[mp44]

SS helmet plaques

These were given to me by a neighbor in the early '60's. They came with a Herman Goring cuff title. One's maker marked with '42, the other with '43.
Glad to finally know what they went on.

[mp44]

Reverse

This is the reverse.

[Edelweiss]

This thread becomes interesting with time and such additions to it. Maybe for once, we'll have more answers than questions on the topic. Maybe...

I suppose these are made of aluminium ? Seems so, but I may be wrong. A remark : the point in common with all these shields, any variant of the originals and fakes together, is that they are non-magnetic.

Here's what Dennis S said a long time ago about fake shields :
"The first sets of the fake shields were cast from aluminum in the 80's. The faker borrowed a set of original's from another dealer who had two sets. One set was JFS42 and the other set was JFS43. He mixed the set so one shield would be a JFS42 and the other a JFS 43. In case they were real good, he would always be able to spot the fakes quick. The faker did them in aluminum imstead of the original zinc type material so that became a moot point anyway. Any mismatched aluminum sets are definately fakes from he 80's."

The problem is that we do not know for sure if original shields were made of aluminium ; Militaria Magazine, in the pic above, tends to say it was the case, but without giving any solid evidence. If so, having "mismatched aluminum sets" is a red flag, but can we really say it's a defintive give-away ??

[mp44]

aluminum

As I said, mine were given to me in the '60's by a neighbor. Mine are a mismatched set of zinc. It would be interesting to see a mismatched set of aluminum. Anyone have a picture?

[Edelweiss]

I guess a mismatched alu set without any provenance would be a problem to authenticate, that's why it was interesting to see one with a 40 years old story (when worn and aged, it's sometimes hard to tell if it's alu or zinc from pics).

But as it's a "classical" zinc set here, we have another good reference ; thanks for sharing it. It also illustrates the fact that sets can be mismatched regarding the date, which is not really surprising IMO.

[RickSqueri]

SS Shields

Has anyone ever encountered a stamped set of sheilds?

[Dennis S]

SS Shields

I guess a mismatched alu set without any provenance would be a problem to authenticate, that's why it was interesting to see one with a 40 years old story (when worn and aged, it's sometimes hard to tell if it's alu or zinc from pics).

But as it's a "classical" zinc set here, we have another good reference ; thanks for sharing it. It also illustrates the fact that sets can be mismatched regarding the date, which is not really surprising IMO.

I don't think there is an major problem with a mismatched zinc set per say,
but with the aluminum ones. If the zinc shields conform to known originals they are most likey good. I am only speaking from what I know went on
when the mismatched aluminums were made. Specifically they had round brass pins. I would not touch any brass pinned mismatched Aluminum SS shields ever IMHO. Regards Dennis

[Edelweiss]

That's the way I understood you Dennis, but thanks for your precisions. The details of the fakery you were aware of are now precious for collectors ; indeed, like M.42 no decal steel helmets, pith helmets are the perfect basis to make a fraudulent - but substantial - benefit from a "common" lid.

[Dennis S]

That's the way I understood you Dennis, but thanks for your precisions. The details of the fakery you were aware of are now precious for collectors ; indeed, like M.42 no decal steel helmets, pith helmets are the perfect basis to make a fraudulent - but substantial - benefit from a "common" lid.

Chris, I think I mentioned this in another thread. This is my opinion and only that. As a rule of thumb ,I would only pay the amount for an SS pith helmet
or other such items ie. (unnamed SS tunics ,certain hats, etc) the value of the original insignia plus the value of the hat or tunic. If any one tells you they can tell the difference between a properly put together SS pith and an untouched one is pissing up a rope.
I am not saying its okay to collect parts pieces, just with certain items thats what you may be getting anyway, so pay accordingly.

Regards Dennis

[Edelweiss]

If any one tells you they can tell the difference between a properly put together SS pith and an untouched one is pissing up a rope.

Dunno if I'm properly equiped for that Dennis, but in the present case I think I could "piss up a rope".

[Dennis S]

Dunno if I'm properly equiped for that Dennis, but in the present case I think I could "piss up a rope".

Chris, Then your a bigger man than me . On the serious side , if you had two
original shields with the pins bent in the proper location of the former. I would certainly be hard pressed to make 100% call. Best Regards Dennis

ps. Good Thread

[Edelweiss]

The rope in question

No Dennis, not sure bigger, but french... We could start another thread on this new topic if you want ?

On the serious side, it's not a question of prongs' bending, even if the prongs are a slightly involved all the same, as you will see. About them, look at Bill's in post #11 : they are not tightly bent on the helmet (on the contrary of the one I showed), but what I see on this pic is quite convincing for me.

Anyway, no nice story here, prongs spectrological analysis, or precisions about the provenance, even if this last one is quite good. In fact, the luck is that the helmet is here an italian one at the origin ; and like all reissued italian piths I saw to date (mainly LWs or KMs), this one is stamped inside. That's what made me think that, since day one of its german time, this helmet was a SS one ; the ink of the stamp even partially covers one of the prongs, indicating that the shields were installed before the stamping was made.

Here's a view of the stamp ; I hesitated to share it here, but finally decided to post a low definition pic, you'll surely understand why. A (very) few people have got a greater sized pic at the moment, but they're collectors to which it won't be necessary to explain by the length the dangers of making such info public : these helmets are very easy to fake, and we already gave here many indications ; with a detailed photo, making such a stamp would be a child's game, would cost a ridiculous price and, for sure, will be later quite hard to detect.

[Dennis S]

Chris, Thanks for the pic. I had no clue that they would mark an Italian Pith

helmet like that. Do you think these helmets were converted for SS use after

the capitulation of Italy in Sept. 1943, or given or sold to the Germans before

that date.

Very interesting item . Regards Dennis

[Edelweiss]

That's a good question... All the other reissued italian piths I saw to date were LW or KM ones (and stamped accordingly). I guess it may well be after the italian capitulation, as the 16. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Reichsführer-SS in particular was created in october 1943, if I don't make a mistake ; it was the only important force facing the partisans in Corsica, before its evacuation to Italy short after the landing of the free french forces there (it seems that we weren't able to make them much harm before they left... ).

I know, it's a very incomplete and blurry answer... About the LSSAH and the 4. SS-Polizei-Division, maybe Cees could give us some more clues ? Unfortunately, as I said at the beginning of this thread, photographical documents on this very topic (SS troops with tropical gear) are too scarce. All we have here is a (supposed to be) member of the LSSAH wearing a german pith with SS shields (the very same as Bill's), members of the 4. SS-Polizei-Division wearing german piths without shields, and a lot of speculations regarding the rest...

Maybe some members could help regarding this skinny period diaporama ???