M-35 Heer SD from the Estand

[Oregon]

Considering the Strache bird which has the unfortunate characterisitic of looking like a chicken, was deemed by the acceptance department as simply too unattractive for issue, rejected, then shelved. It could happen - look at the party shields which have an off-register red-field shifted outside the black border. Those decals likely failed QC, are not encountered on issued helmets but are found on helmets which are known to have had the decals applied post-war.

Cody

[Perry Floyd]

[
Hi Guys!

A couple of points I want to mention. First, I do not like the decal on the M35 for sale. It looks like the decal on a “fantasy helmet” I was offered a week or so ago.

Secondly, overall I understand the implications of accepting a dealer’s word on controversial issues. Jason Burmeister however, has made probably 100s of hotel buys and is a very honest person. His reputation for being honest has brought him success. Most dealers need to pay the bills and almost need to take part in underhanded activities to get by.

Perry, if I can get my hands on this decal collection before the SOS we should compare construction, and natural age among the different manufacturers. If it comes into my hands after the SOS I would be happy to send an assortment to you for you to study. Regardless, I look forward to catching up to you at the show!

Best Wishes,

Bob

PS- The applied decal I mentioned is the one Tom mentioned. Secondly, I am fighting more about these being of pre 1945 manufacture. I also agree an ES decal applied to a helmet should be carefully scrutinized. A rare bird to find applied but not impossible from my experience!

Fully understand but a honest person doesn't make a knowledgable person in a pacticular field. Most dealers have a general knowledge of helmets and is the reason a bad helmet will sometimes sit at a honest dealers table or website.

Tom I understand the two opposing camps of thought concerning the ES decals. I just want to get all information out from the pro-ES side that show these as wartime and sometimes applied decals. This debate is skirted around on each thread concerning ES decals. Key questions ignored. If I don't know, I want to be shown something likely or at least believable so I will know. So far I've seen no good debate pro-ES.

[BobI]

Hi Perry,

I fully agree with you, although if Jason has picked up ES decals from vets on multiple occasions it is worth something. That is in addition to my experience.

I think we should hold off with this thread until I get the stash of decals. I am sure we can learn something from them.

On a thread about RKs, Tom Hansen had a laboratory investigate the molecular composition of the RK pained core. I would be happy to invest in such a test when I get the decals, it may help put this too rest.

Best Wishes,

Bob

[Perry Floyd]

Hello Perry,

Again, I am making no argument for any helmet that the Strache decal appears on. I have never even held a helmet that has one of these decals in my hands.

I believe the decals themselves to be wartime production.

I base my belief on;

1) Apparent age of the decals. They compare favorably in age to accepted wartime decals.

2) Construction of the decal. They are layered with silver metallic backing.

3) They are the reverse type decals. Wouldn't a faker do better by trying a water slide type first?

4) The unapplied decals appear in older collections. I'm sure Ludwig Baer thought them period or he wouldn't have put them in his book.

As to why they were never (or only seldom) used. I have no earthly idea other than the several theories that have come up in the past.

It's only my opinion.

Best regards.

Jim

Jim you make very good reasonable points that could be likely except #4. These decals are thought as 43 era decals by pro-ES side. The helmets in Baers book are '34-'35 era clearly knocking the standard theory of these decals out of contention. Unless #4 is not correct. This is key as it determines the pedigree of these decals as the pro-ES side has allways thought this was a mid-war '43 produced decal and the main reason why they were never used.

[STILSON]

And some other collectors from Missouri take - in a very amazing way - only ONE and quite poor argument to PROVE that a decal is period...


Any photographic evidence of this decal in wear, Stilson ?

Edelweiss - Stop showing off.

[STILSON]

Bill's not only an honest dealer but has seen thousands of helmets in his time. That's why his opinion would be so valuable here.

[STILSON]

.

[Raffaello Carola]

Hi,
I am collector of German Helmets in particular Heer, I enter within in the argument, in order asking they existed decals Heer not outlined black or grey? from the photos these decal are not outlined.... IMO this decals are fake.
regards
Quex

[Edelweiss]

Edelweiss - Stop showing off.

Strange reaction when your own arguments are used against you...

Apart from the fact that I'm not supposed to obey orders (if you feel like giving some you should get a dog), I'm sorry to say that most of your 71 posts - I read them all - were either intended to start a debate, or made people waste their time. There were 10 in the "M.35 Medical" (14% of your total posts), just to say at the end... that you were "not too proud" (sic).

Nothing prevents you from asking wise questions, learning, showing a few items, being constructive (I won't say helpful) in the discussions... from time to time.

But well, this time enough time spent on that, as far as I'm concerned ; so, back to the topic. I guess it won't be tomorrow that we'll know without absolutely no doubt if the ES decals are period or not ; like most of us, I already choosed my side, but still keep an open mind and will enjoy the discussions on the subject.

But what really annoys me, and I already said it before, is that the "supposed-to-be-ES-decals" shown on helmets are not only often different between each other, but also - and above all - quite different from the unapplied decals. We already saw that in many former threads ; ES is the "on fashion" alibi to make collectors swallow a certain kind of fake decals and other highly doubtful "variations", who pop out today like mushrooms in fall.

Whatever, as I feared it, the "ES" and "sublued LW" decals are unfortunately about to be put in the same bag finally...
Hmm, no : I see that they already are.

[Jim McCauley]

Jim you make very good reasonable points that could be likely except #4.

Perry,

We can go around and around on this one. I know of older collections with the decal. You know of older collections without.

These decals are thought as 43 era decals by pro-ES side.

I thought that was one of the possible theories. I don't think that is written in stone by anyone.

The helmets in Baers book are '34-'35 era clearly knocking the standard theory of these decals out of contention. Unless #4 is not correct. This is key as it determines the pedigree of these decals as the pro-ES side has allways thought this was a mid-war '43 produced decal and the main reason why they were never used.

I regret that I did not pull out the "bible" and check the helmets you are talking about. I'm now at work for a few days and may not be home until Friday.

Again, the 1943 senario is a theory, one of many that have come up in discussion about these decals.

I don't know what to say, except we disagree on this point.

I'm sure there will be more to follow.

Jim

[Gerd W.]

Hello!

Sitting here in the "backstage area" of that very good thread, I'm wondering if anybody of the guys who prefer to say that such decal style is period or period attached, ever got one directly out of Germany or better, directly from a German vet.

My feeling is, that 99,99% of such decals are found on helmets, which are located somewhere in the States.

I didn't hold thousends of helmets in my hands of course, but let me say several (and I prefered the direct German vet buy).

There was not one which had such a decal!

Ok, there were and are more than thousend helmets out there, but decals were produced in large sources, not only some hundreds, so there should be a chance to find such decals here in the country where the helmets in question normaly came from.

That will say all, but also maybe nothing........................ just a thought.

[william r match]

Fascinating debate & I look forward to learning some more from people who have obviously taking some time & effort to research this particular facet.


Regarding the Heer decal which originated the post, on any genuine M35 that I have owned, seen or handled, I have never encountered such a decal.


Billy