everybody like this one? (wirehelmet)

[Willi Z.]

Ah, the good ol'days, with no worries at all...

Yes, when we could take the helmet fakers out to the parking lot, at shows, and tie them to telephone poles with bailing wire.....and keep them there till the wire aged properly....

The forums, when the talent is drawn to them, are invaluable to collecting today. I think we have a great bunch of people here. Happy New Year to all!

[Edelweiss]

Good ol'West

Yes, when we could take the helmet fakers out to the parking lot, at shows, and tie them to telephone poles with bailing wire.....and keep them there till the wire aged properly....

Ha ! I thought tar and feathers was rather the custom there...

[Ken N]

Concerning the aforementioned stramnge appearance to the liner.

It looks to me to be an original one. It further appears to be one of the un-issued ones that have come out of the Czech republic since the early 90s. Stacks of original liners showed up in prague ( and soon after at shows in the US) having been removed from the black helmets that were original german shells reworked in the late 40s early 50s. The Czechs still reworked original shells after that but had run out of original pre-1945 german liners and resorted to using liners made from original German liner bands with 4 cheesy leatherette pads.

Anyway, this one has all the indications of being one of these original Un-issued german liners. The drawstring is hard to see but appears to be either a recently added piece of twine or a Czech produced drawstring. I have seen a good number of these liners with a strange, thinner version of the German drawstring which I believe to be Czech made from the immediate post-war years. It seems to be that the czech ran out of German drawstrings before they ran out of german liners or german cut leather to rebuild them.

The strange look of the liner is I believe, a result of an attempt to give it a used look. Note the wavy-ness of the leather nearer to the rim where it is darker. I think this is due to moisture caused by the attempt to give it a slightly aged look. Note that while it appears to have "sweat stains" around the edge, there is no actual wear evident.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear that the liner band marking is "B&C Litzmannstadt, 1943". That is a maker commonly found on these original un-issued liners. The B&C Plant at Litzmannstadt (since renamed to something else, which I forgot) fell within the control of the czechs after the war and a great number of the liners produced there show up in Czech-reworked helmets.

Interesting to note that the B&C firm was originally located in Berlin. (note the early liners maker marked "B&C, Berlin, 1938" and so on.) Apparently they moved their company to occupied Czechoslovakia during the war to take advantage of cheap labor ?

This is not to cast aspersions on all "B&C Litzmannstadt" marked liners. I have seen many of them in completely original German helmets.

[JohnB]

Ken,
I know you travel extensively through Europe in your search for helmets and you are quite knowledgable.
But I am genuinely having a difficult time believing that these liners from Czech. are left over from the TR. I am more inclined to believe they were made in the 1960s or whenever by the Czechs for legitimate purposes.
Anyway, they have a distinctive look which I am not comfortable with. Just MO.
John

[Ken N]

John:

I believe that you are partially (if not mostly) right, but not completely.

There are several sub-catagoies that these liner fall into:

Liners that appear to be completely original with german markings on the inside of the leather and everything, but the size markings do not match and the sometimes present date does not match the liner band (usually, the liner band is dated 43-44 or RB'd). believe that these were assembled post war by the czechs from original german-origin stocks of cut leather pieces, small brads and metal liner bands.

Liners that are made with (usually, 43-44 dated or RB'd)) original bands but with funky looking leather. ie; leather that looks like coarse pig-skin type. Normally these liners have the strange drawstrings that I assume to be czech made. (the drawstrings are "flat", that is, if they were cut, the cross-section would be oval rather than round)

Lastly, there are liners that have come from the czech re-issued helmets that are dated with early war dates, corrosponding type of tanning to the leather and overall displaying "matching" quality. I believe these to be actual german produced liners that were in stock within Czechoslovakia when the war ended and were later used by the czechs when re-working the black helmets.

I would estimate that this last catagory makes up about 25% of the liners that I have seen that have come available in the czech republic.

[Lone Pine]

The liner in this one looks very Latvian to me. Does the stitched seem on the leather look hand done?. It could be a complete Latvian remake?.
Bruce

[Ken N]

Bruce:

Of course, that is possible. I cannot claim to know for certain without a hands-on exam. But from what I can see, I suspect this liner to be one of the previously mentioned ones.

One thing I am sure about; it is not an actual combat used liner (as it has been made to look like) and not original to the helmet.