Thick Border SS Decal

[Erich Wahl]

This one is on an Hkp M42.

[darryl-P]

Erich,

Forget this one...it's bad.

[bodes]

Erich,

Forget this one...it's bad.

What Darryl said.....

[Ken B.]

.

[Robert Kondor]

Darryl and Ken,

I have to chime in on this one as I'm the owner of this helmet.
I knew it was going to be controversial because of the thick border. There are variations most of us have never seen and this is certainly one of those.

When I first held it in my hand I was shaking my head because I had never seen this type before, but the proper champagne color on an Hkp shell, and metallic content convinced me otherwise. Everything matches up except for the thick border.
Another very important factor is the source.
The person I purchased it from originally bought it from Bill Shea more than seven years ago. Not that Bill couldn't make a mistake (we all do from time to time) but did anyone know about the connection between helmet makers and decal types back then? I certainly didn't!
Neither did the fakers! So I don't think they just happened to get it right purely by accident.
I also consulted Kelly Hicks on this one (he personally examined it last Saturday) and what he told me further convinced me I was looking at a very rare variant.
Back in 1980 he owned one helmet with this same type decal and Juhn Suprin still does to this day. His is on a Quist shell though. I haven't confirmed this with him yet, but I'll take Kelly's word on it!
So up to this day there are at least three known specimens with this version.
Some of you will not agree with me, which is fine, but I think you should keep an open mind before condemning this baby to death.
Those of you who know me also know how fiercly protective I am of my reputation. I do not offer my merchandise unless I'm convinced the item I'm selling is original. I fully stand behind this one until someone can prove me wrong. That may happen though, and if it does I will accept the stronger argument.

So let's have a civilized discussion over this.

Robert

[darryl-P]

Darryl and Ken,

I have to chime in on this one as I'm the owner of this helmet.
I knew it was going to be controversial because of the thick border. There are variations most of us have never seen and this is certainly one of those.

Robert,

I know of you (although we have never met) and I certainly do respect your decision on this decal. I also know and have met Kelly a few times and the same applies there.

I have been collecting for 30+ years and have never, ever seen anything like the decal posted above. However, I like to believe that I have an open mind and will accept something new if my colleagues believe it to be real. So yes...let's have closer look and debate it. Perhaps it's a foriegn variant?

As an aside, there is also a decal on the GDC forum that I don't particularly like but the owner says he remembers it from 1952 when it was pulled out of his grandfather's footlocker. There's another one to consider.

Cheers,

[InfanterieSammler]

Rare Helmet

Hey Guys,
There's seems to be a little more discussion on the 'other forum' about this, and perhaps a consensus (see link below). Since I only post on this forum (now), I wanted to add my two cents. I was fortunate enough to handle this rare helmet last weekend at the Union, NJ show and I have to say that while certain characteristics of the decal, i.e. the runes and border are not something familiar, there are other characteristics such as the metallic content of the decal and the way it has settled right into the paint of the helmet, that weighed heavily in favor of it. That taken along with the fact that some of the most knowledgable helmet collectors like Robert and Kelly are comfortable with the decal and that is enough for me to accept it as an original SS decal...Best, John

http://daggers.infopop.net/2/OpenTop...85&m=509106972

[bodes]

I guess it just goes to show you, we don't have the corner on knowledge...My only fear is every thick bordered SS decal that resembles this one will lead others to complain that theirs are real...Just remember rare is nice, but it can also lead to many detractors who will never accept this style of decal. And merely because it doesn't fit "the norm". Sad, but that's the way things are...

[Gene]

Very admirable that knowledgeable guys backed away from their "it's got to be fake" assessment and instead adopted the possibility that it might very well be original.

[arjan]

but the proper champagne color on an Hkp shell, and metallic content convinced me otherwise. Everything matches up except for the thick border.
Another very important factor is the source.
The person I purchased it from originally bought it from Bill Shea more than seven years ago. Not that Bill couldn't make a mistake (we all do from time to time) but did anyone know about the connection between helmet makers and decal types back then? I certainly didn't!
Neither did the fakers! So I don't think they just happened to get it right purely by accident.

Back in 1980 he owned one helmet with this same type decal and Juhn Suprin still does to this day. His is on a Quist shell though.
Robert

I believe your remarks are not correct, you said nobody knew about the relation between helmet makers an decal type in the 1980. So this variant of the "champagne decal" should be correct on your Hkp helmets, but shouldn't be correct on the Q helmet.
Being on different helmets with the same type of decal would sound like a fakers decal. But because it is a thick border twin look-a-like of the champagne decal I rather tend to the fact that these are one of the first attemps of using original decal making equipment to make the decal without knowing on what helmets they were supposed too. Still having the knowlegde of making them but not knowing what happened to them after they went out of the decal factory. Maybe the factory was making a reprint in 1946 IMHO

Arjan

Correct me if i'm wrong

[adam]

Why make a perfect decal and then spoil it by making the border too thick? From someone who will never buy an SS helmet unless I can have a video cam link to Darryl or Ty

[arjan]

Ok what I wanted to say is:

Why make a perfect decal and apply it to a Q helmet which isn't right for such a decal if it is a wartime hkp variant. I'm not saying I is impossible I just want a reaction from some other members because I have heard to many time: Hmm I have problems with that decal on that helmet.


Arjan.

[darryl-P]

I do not want to say any more about this decal, and really I can't because I have not seen it in hand. However, I do give it the benefit of the doubt and accept it as a real variant at this time because two very esteemed individuals say it is so.

As to the certain decals being on certain shells theory please remember that this is only valid on "factory-issue" helmets. There were many many field and depot level modifications carried out. Moreover, towards the end of the war most rules went out the window as factories coped as best they could to the stringent rules laid down by the Reich government authorities.

This decal has been seen on three helmets now over the years and I'm willing to give it a chance. Collecting is a learning process and hopefully we are all learning here.