SS M42 with Matching Camo cover

[fader107]

element profiles

This is somewhat fascinating. how / who determines what element profiles constitute a "real" helmet? What exactly are the unique properties?

[maui]

This same strategy has been applied to camo paint as the different elements that make up the paint can and have been measured.

Yes it may determine if the paint is old or not, but not when it was applied to the helmet.

Matt

Thanks Matt,
That is a good and correct point , what we have found is that it is possible to quantify typical german period camo paint and factory finish elements which may include Titanium , Zinc, Cobalt , lead, etc. Pretty interesting data .

Also, I owe you a thank you as you were the one who cleverly found and secured this SS Q68 Camo helmet that is now one of my favorite SS Camos . So as an example on this helmet we were able to measure the SS Q decal , also the interior factory finish and camo paint profiles. We know for sure that SS Unterscharfuhrer Holter served with the 1st SS Brigade in Russia, so we now have an SS russian front camo paint profile for the database.
Regards
David

[Matt M]

Thanks Matt,
That is a good and correct point , what we have found is that it is possible to quantify typical german period camo paint and factory finish elements which may include Titanium , Zinc, Cobalt , lead, etc. Pretty interesting data .

Also, I owe you a thank you as you were the one who cleverly found and secured this SS Q68 Camo helmet that is now one of my favorite SS Camos . So as an example on this helmet we were able to measure the SS Q decal , also the interior factory finish and camo paint profiles. We know for sure that SS Unterscharfuhrer Holter served with the 1st SS Brigade in Russia, so we now have an SS russian front camo paint profile for the database.
Regards
David

Wow
Very Cool that you were able to trace that helmets history.
Thanks for displaying it/

Matt

[MauserKar98k]

Awesome set! Both the lid and the cover are outstanding!

[Ken B.]

Dave and I tested a couple of helmets when he was in my neck of the woods a few weeks ago. There were several very good tests conducted on SS decals and exterior paint with outstanding results. We found in his base testing that genuine SS decals and period paint contain unique element profiles that reproductions do not have. There are even certain elements found within original factory paint in regard to a specific shell manufacturer. We even ran a test on my geometric woodchip camo and it picked up traces of aluminum under the camo which we determined is a Heer decal that is not visible under the paint. We were also able to determine the element composition profile of the camo paint.

I am a believer of this testing as I have seen it work. Technology at its best.

(photo of my camo posted with Dave's permission since its related to the thread)

[DougB]

This stuff is the real deal gents.

There is a name for this type of work, called "Archaeometry", the application and measurement of science behind archeological or time dated artifacts. It is nothing new but new technologies and portabilities of the technology make advanced science that was expensive and lab related now available to the common collector.

Other methodology being used is high resolution digital magnification to 400x to determine substructure to decals, details not seen by the naked eye or with a 30x loupe even. Natural patina and age toning to real decals made from the period elemental composition can be seen at this magnification and not on reproductions that are fake aged or not aged at all.

Archaeometric databases can be made using these tools that can determine real from repro. Repro's do not have the same elemental composition nor do they have the same aging, patina, ink markings, and even fingerprints that real ones do.

Amazing stuff and none of this is new. Just never been applied to these collectibles before.

Keep up the good work David.

[maui]

This stuff is the real deal gents.

There is a name for this type of work, called "Archaeometry", the application and measurement of science behind archeological or time dated artifacts. It is nothing new but new technologies and portabilities of the technology make advanced science that was expensive and lab related now available to the common collector.

Other methodology being used is high resolution digital magnification to 400x to determine substructure to decals, details not seen by the naked eye or with a 30x loupe even. Natural patina and age toning to real decals made from the period elemental composition can be seen at this magnification and not on reproductions that are fake aged or not aged at all.

Archaeometric databases can be made using these tools that can determine real from repro. Repro's do not have the same elemental composition nor do they have the same aging, patina, ink markings, and even fingerprints that real ones do.

Amazing stuff and none of this is new. Just never been applied to these collectibles before.

Keep up the good work David.

thanks Doug,..... in several areas and armed with the latest technology , there is definitely some new ground being broken in the research being conducted on TR helmets that allows increased knowledge in the field. The advanced magnification work you have been conducting is really interesting and coupled with high powered X-Ray analysis, the resulting databases are a wealth of information about original and fake examples that can be mined for the benefit of all of us in the collecting community. Outstanding

Ken, great to see that Geo camo helmet in person..thanks

David

[Ralph P]

Ken - Thanks for your latest post...

Dave and I tested a couple of helmets when he was in my neck of the woods a few weeks ago. There were several very good tests conducted on SS decals and exterior paint with outstanding results. We found in his base testing that genuine SS decals and period paint contain unique element profiles that reproductions do not have. There are even certain elements found within original factory paint in regard to a specific shell manufacturer. We even ran a test on my geometric woodchip camo and it picked up traces of aluminum under the camo which we determined is a Heer decal that is not visible under the paint. We were also able to determine the element composition profile of the camo paint.

I am a believer of this testing as I have seen it work. Technology at its best.

(photo of my camo posted with Dave's permission since its related to the thread)

[Chad1]

tests

I would imagine that some real surprises will come when tests like this become more widespread.

Bad, bad surprises.

[sszza2]

Fabulous work! I can't imagine that a legit collector or dealer could find fault with science applied to this subject. Obviously a credible sample DB of period original examples needs to be developed. Sounds like you are well on your way with all of that.

The only concern I have is that the fraudsters are now putting great effort into producing paint and decals which can mirror original properties. How realistic is this concern? As with all R&D its only the first example that is expensive.

[Schwerpunkt]

A lot will depend on how accessible it will be for the average Joe collector.

If the results of this testing are controlled by a select few the way is open for them to dominate the helmet hobby with this new form of COA (the pie chart).

What will be the price and effect on the hobby in general ? These are my concerns...

Let it be clear that I don't doubt that the results can be beneficial but I can see its usefulness towards very high-end helmets only.

[maui]

Fabulous work! I can't imagine that a legit collector or dealer could find fault with science applied to this subject. Obviously a credible sample DB of period original examples needs to be developed. Sounds like you are well on your way with all of that.

The only concern I have is that the fraudsters are now putting great effort into producing paint and decals which can mirror original properties. How realistic is this concern? As with all R&D its only the first example that is expensive.

Thanks, What we have found in the X-Ray analysis of high end fakes is that the fraudsters have spent their time trying to perfect the aesthetics of their product ( decal, paint) to the eye , and very little time in understanding the true composition, the elements that actually make up an original example that we can quantify and measure. As an example, there are some elements that we do not see in fakes that are present in originals and when there are elements that exist in both original and fake, the percentages do not match.
David

[DDCOOK]

I was going through some old threads and found this one. In my opinion...one of the two or three best SS helmet / cover combinations on the planet. No doubt about this one. Wonderful combat helmet and cover that was unquestionably in the thick of the action. For a SS helmet collector (or any helmet collector) it doesn't get better than this one

Dan

[LetsGo82nd]

Really nice to see this one again. I was fortunate enough to hold this helmet/cover set in hand. Definitely agree with Dan; one of the best surviving examples on the planet. They just don't come any better. -Jeremy

[Tom Kibler]

David - Did this helmet come from eBay - like way back in the day when you could sell this stuff there? I remember an M42 with a cover. A daughter of the vet put it up for sale and the auction ended when the $$$ hit $10,000 (this was back in 03'??)

Great helmet regardless.

TK