2 KM decals

[Perry Floyd]

Here's the pair of KM decals that were being discussed if they are a possible match. I started the topic again to get it on a right track and get more collectors involved.
My opinion is no, they are not.
First reason id in my opinion one is a grey lined Adler one is black. This one alone knocks it out as being the same decal. Unless it it believed that makers made grey and black decals at the same time. I do not think they did.
There are slight differences in the fletching (sorry Rich I have'nt mastered taking a pic and circling areas of question, I'm working on that). Fusing the decal together with another like it is not really going to show. You would really need to take the outline of one and place it over the outline of the other using a different color. This I imagine would be difficult to do but would be a sure way to show you the variations in the fletching of the two.

This is my opinion of why these are not the exact same decal.

[Perry Floyd]

Here they are...

[Patrick Dempsey]

Well,
this has proven to be an illuminating topic to say the least.
I'm sure this new one will prove to be eye straining as well.
After looking at both decals side by side, i think you can indeed see some very subtle differences.

The first one i have boxed in red. On the decal on the right, the feather has the look of an elongated chilli (sorry, my brain seems to be working in food metaphors at the moment!) to me..which is a different shape in the same area to the decal on the left.

The dark blue boxed area on the left side decal seems to have a ripple in the diagonal line of the triangular feather where the body of the eagle meets the wing..this would appear to be absent on the decal on the right, which has a more defined, angular, precise "/" shape to the feather.

The third noticible difference i have boxed in light blue. The decal on the right once again shows a nice rounded "Pear" like shape to the feather, in contrast to the more angular version of the same feather on the left.

There may well be more..but i think pass over to others and save my eyeballs more strain for the moment

All the best,

Patrick.

[Perry Floyd]

THe are many details I feel are different, but theyt are subtle. Look at the end of the wing, compare it to the other, the end id different. If the other side was there it was probably a little different as well...
Still don't know how to do the lines so I must crop it

[william r match]

Guys,

Re - grey lined and black - lined Adlers. I can confirm the one attached below is 100% black - lined, no hint of grey. The Ruptured Duck Adler with the missing portion to the breast is also black - lined.

The attached image shows this.

Different quality of images and light do not help.

[Perry Floyd]

Yes from that pic it does look black. So that may not be a issue anymore. It looked very different from previous photo's..But notice the very end of the feathers that I posted, notice the end. It comes to a end different than the other one. There are more but this one's easy to see..

[Perry Floyd]

Here it is, the other side I'm sure was differnt as well, from the looks of what's left..

I can't get over the difference in the outline color in the new pic, very much different...

[SgtB]

In the side by side comparison shot, if you look at the long feathers on the left wings that hang straight down, you'll see differences. Notice that on the one at the right the feathers are thicker causing the black background to be noticeably narrower. It
stands out once you see it and flash back and forth with your
eyes. The bulges in the tops of these feathers start at different
heights as well. These decals are close but no cigar!

[william r match]

Guys,

We are agreed.

1. Both are KM
2. Both have the ridge affect.
3. Both are on ET shells
4. Both are in black defining detail

Concentrating on outstanding issues.

To summarise, there are no obvious differences, but subtle differences. The subtle differences being a focus on feather/wing detail.

Has anyone ever heard of the expression, 'you can't see the wood for the trees'

Like most my eyes are burning out of my head and it is fast approaching Miller time


In comparison, look at the similarities, which as yet have not been mentioned in the finite detail, adlers head, eye detail etc. During the manufacturing process of the German war machine of the 1930s is it possible/probable that a mass production run of the same KM Decal was susceptable to slight nuisances in variation? and I mean very slight

I might have to buy Bills bloody lid in the interests of research


Billy

[Perry Floyd]

Yeah buy it

But in my opinion the same maker during the same time would have allmost perfect matches being produced. This falls outside that I feel. Noting the end of the wings I pointed out, it's a little more than a very slight print variation.
But this is what I see..maybe we can get others to weigh in..

[atcase]

Hi all

There are some very subtle differences between these eagles, and also the odd obvious one, see the inner left feather on the left wing it has two indentations rather than one !
Or am i looking too hard ??

Ashley

[Rich G]

Guys,

from a badge collectors point of view, I'm used to seeing variations between manufacturers and we're talking huge variations and even from badges from the same manufacturers there can be found small variations. I guess that's why I find it hard to accept those minor variations pointed out on these decals as confiming they are from different manufacturers. Could a different batch run not produce such variations? Could wear and damage on the decal not produce what looks like variations?

When I think of a variation I expect to see a different shaped head, beak or claw... know what I mean?

I think to really able to sudy these 2 decals we would need a photo of each under the same lighting conditions, the exact same distance away, etc before we can really confirm these are variations through different manufacturers and not just imperfections.

What's your thoughts on this?

Rich

[Perry Floyd]

Yeah I agree with badges, some makers even sub-contacting out work is possible...
But a printed decal is much different with the lines allmost allways staying the same. If there's a variration in maker it's usually a printing error like a shift in the pattern, but the same pattern...see what I'm saying?
Badge manufacturing can't really be used to relate, sorta like comparing bevo weave of insigna variations to decal variations..they are totally two different things.

[Rich G]

Perry, yes I understand what you're saying, however I don't think it can be ruled out 100%

I guess we would need someone who really understands and has experience in printing to come in on this and give their experiences with this?

Here's another thought... would you expect 2 different manufacturers to produce a decal so 'almost' exact to one another? I don't know how the original printing was done...I expect it was some sort of metal stamp for each layer? But if each manufacturer was responsible for producing their own stamp I very much doubt they would each produce a decal so almost identical.

Maybe there was a central agency that provided the stamps... is there anything in the helmet reference books that might suggest this?

Rich

[Perry Floyd]

I guess that changes things as differences in the two are evident. Now would it be possible of variations in each decal that the individual maker produced(in the same time frame). I think you can have placement variations (an off set decal) but the lines are the same or very close to the original pattern as the one before it. The two posted I feel are alittle more than that. Notice the ones I croped, the fletching come to a different end. And like mentioned there are other small variations throughout..
It's no biggie of a issue, with these variations I conclude it's not the same decal by maker.
I think your going to have a situation of a campA which believes and a campB which doesn't, which is becoming evident in the comments thus far..sorta like the subdued Luft. eagles...