Help Needed On Italian SS Helmet

[Tommaso]

Are you jocking or you are serious?
Facts? What facts do you talking about?
About the tales that a prisoner went back home from the POW camp after 3 years with his helmet?
This sounds funny.
I didn't see even a small part of an original SS Italian helmet on this thread.
Then I really don't know what you are talking about.
Maybe you see them, then I would assume you are blind.
Facts is not provenance: facts means that you must be able to prove this helmet was used by italian SS at 100%.

It's very strange that there wasn't even a single WAF helmet "guy" to support your "facts"..

Ok, you have a 100% original Italian SS helmet, I admit it....try to came to Italy and sell it as original Italian SS helmet..they will going to report you to the police at least!

This is my last post about this senseless thread.

[Daniele C]

Drapeau Noir I still believe in Father Xmas and untill you prove he doesnt exist it s true

[Lafitte]

I think what that are my last post in this topic because i look what this discussion not have interest for nobody, no others collector reply at this topic so is it useless go on.
You rest of your idea we rest of our.
The title of topic is it wrong you not "needed help" you want only do a proclamation of your rarest piece.
One thing is it sure, i never say (without real aged documentation and pic post) what this helmet is it for sure an real italian SS helmet, that is it a wrong message for the collectors of italians items of the all world.
Too much speculations in this last years about men and items of the RSI era, too much fakes proclamed like rarest items on publications or markets only for easy erns on the wallets of collectors.

You have convienently left out some points which lend credibility to the fact that Guiseppe wore it:

1. He returned to his home in 1949 with the helmet in hand, along with his uniform, and medals etc.

Black Belt you was here to see like Giuseppe come at home after 4 years in a POW camp?
You think what his uniform survive at all thatr years?
You think what if he come at home with is right uniform with italian SS insegna all people give he the wellcom?
And the uniform with right collars tabs, shoulder boards, and arm eagle where is it?
You for sure know what lot of people in the RSI army must be go for lot of years in every part of the world because in Italy the political status not was good for that soldiers?
You know what lot of RSI soldiers have got process and lot was of risk his life for his military service?
You know what lot of this can't live because nobody give him a job, etc etc

2. The inside liner has in Giuseppe's hand 'SS- 291" not written on top of the wear, but as part of the wear, proving that the writting was on the liner during its use, not after.:

This his a your affermation nobody can give to you a positive response perhaps only the CSI can be know something of new about that script.

Yes there are thousands of Italian helmets on the market, however none that I am aware of that have this level of provenance, and these specific soldier added attributes. I would much rather have this helmet with its info, than an helmet with easily faked/ aged decals of the Italian-SS that are a dime a dozen, and exectued with such perfection.

For ours lucky i don't see this perfection on the repros lot of this are fanny and no credibles, for disegns, status, materials and atificially aged.

The above FACTS, along with other evidence, both period photos of the unit, and the documentation of Giuseppe's service is what lends creedeance to the helemt being worn by Giuseppe in service. I do not need to add anything "new" because there is nothing new to report. Facts amigo, are facts, and are not changed based on whim, or fancy. I get the distinct air about you, that any Italian-SS helmet would be fake unless you owned it. Ask yourself these questions:

Do you accept the helmet that is shown in "Foreign Legions Of The Third Riech" as being original, or a fake?:

Post this photo for all collectors i can think what you talk about but lot of people don't know that documentation. you can post it with the citation of provenience, no problems with copyrights.

Do you accept the helmet that I highlighted from another board member here in the above thread as original, or fake.

Ahhh you talk about that on the link signed? I explain my idea on the top for me are 2 fakes but if you want believe what that are good original you are free of course, in that case you know things what i don't know like the provenience of the pieces, the material of the decals, about their prints, about real tricolors discovered on italians m.33 or german m.35-40-42, etc I say what that decals are well know fakes and i'm not the only what say that.

In both of these situations, I clearly illustrated what has been accepted by the collecting community as original. Why wouldn't you agree? What because the Italian-SS are so misunderstood, or that you would believe that EVERY soldier destroyed their uniforms in haste, therfore nothing could have possibly survived the war? Also the logic you use would mean that ALL SS men destroyed their uniforms because many of them were also being shot on the spot by partisans & communists, yet we have hundreds if not thousands of examples still floating the world being discovered in barns, attics, cellars etc.

Some material are survive but if you talk about a complete uniform i can say no in all Italy, not exist an original uniform of italian SS with insegna sewing at the time, Well know original items are know from Dachau depots but that not was used Dachau eagles are differents from the originals used, some used eagle (one from a veteran) have a different embroyed disegn.
Are know some shuolder boards in red and collar tabs made in Germany with german matieria like cloth and pipes.

That logic would dictate that any Italian-SS helmet placed in any book, or museum, regardless of the research done prior to its publication or exhibit would be fake.

Show to us where in every part of the world there are tons of italian SS item, on that books on what museum give to us a list so we can see this pieces,
A uniform is it simple to redoing with original insegna too but the helmets where is it.
If this are real have decals?
Hand painted schields, airbrush eagles? Skulls?
Have german decals on m.33 helmets? Of what productor? NS, Et others?
How much pieces? 100? 1000?

For a simple comparation about the helmets, you really know what in the all Italy exist perhaps 200 good helmets of the National Republicam Army (ENR) what was formed to 4 divisions with circa 60000 soldiers, you sure know what some RSI badges are know only in few piece (5-7) and others are know only from original pics and no one piece at the moment are know in the collection?
You probably know what as far some months ago in Italy we don't know the existence of a metal collar tab of a volunteeers unit untill what few pieces of this come out from battlefield in Triest zone find from a my friend?
So you talk of hundred and thousands pieces conserved in the museum of the all wordl?

I am shocked at the level of doubt that you have exhibited for a unit that is known for wearing such a hodge podge of uniforms, with no regulations from the SS that have ever come to light, and with photographic evidence showing the WIDE range of isssued/ found equipment they used. By your standards I assume that for every piece in your collection, you have a period photo of the person wearing the exact item in your hands, so clear that its left with no doubt that they are one in the same. I would have to say, your the man. :

Yes in Italy serious collectors doubt of all because the 99% of the pieces of RSI era on the markes are well know fakes, the doubt on this sector of collection save the life. The our standars are confirm to crossed informations about decals, materials, aspect, and others thingh ( what a collector know (probably some one know who made fakes in the last years). On some pieces every one have his doubts expecially for the pieces with handpainted insegna, so the collectors buy some pieces only becaus this can have a real corrispondence with other know in his experiences but in the end the buy is it a faith act.

Bottom line, I got the info I needed, I am not selling the helmet. I have already recieved multiple offers from some board members here, without putting it on the E-Stand. I thank those fellow collectors who have made offers for thier understanding that this is part of my family history, and not for sale. I am more than aware of the value of Italian-SS helmets, I have been collecting SS for more than 20 years. How would you know the value? Your logic states that there are NO authentic SS helmets on the market to buy...LOL! :

About the your last affermation i can say: yes at the moment in all the world not are a good italian SS helmet to buy!

The people I refered to as having helmets are shown in the above mentioned books, and links, plus a few others who are well respected in the hobby, and I thank them for the info provided/ photos they provided. For those in doubt, doesn't bother me in the least.

I'm happy you have this referents for the pieces, i say only a thing on the books lot of pices have an uncorect designation and sometimes are fake items too, not is it all gold what there are on the books, in aged or new publications, can be a point of start not the end for advanced colletors i look the way in this mode.
So at this point why your referent don't talk about this helmet?
Why if thei are really sure of this affermations nobady come into this thread?
Why we poor collectors with a minimal experiece can be know new informations about the real SS helmets?
Why this discrimination?
I'm very honored with great collector what show his pieces without proves to confirm their affermations, what think what only the their pieces are over any suspect, what live of sure affermations and no doubts about nothing, how talk to others collectors without citations, with collectors what think what every pieces are good only because one or two pieces similars can be publisched on the books.
I like too the cordial tones of discussion with no hidden sarcasm.

With this idea i can alwais say to all collectors:

"Yeah this on the post is it a really great italian SS helmet. "

P.S.please don't smoke is it dangerous!

[BlackBelt]

"So at this point why your referent don't talk about this helmet?
Why if thei are really sure of this affermations nobady come into this thread?"


Many have read the thread, but rather than waste their time spatting with "Italian experts", ( I should have taken thier advise) they made their opinion known via private message, and email. Do not be so brass as to think that simply because there are no forum posts from other members, that this thread was not well recieved.

[Tommaso]

You do not even worth a reply to your last miserable post.

Enjoy your "Italian SS Helmet - Land of the dreamers style", maybe one day it will be depicted on some books...yes, children books!

[Raffaello Carola]

"So at this point why your referent don't talk about this helmet?
Why if thei are really sure of this affermations nobady come into this thread?"


Many have read the thread, but rather than waste their time spatting with "Italian experts", ( I should have taken thier advise) they made their opinion known via private message, and email. Do not be so brass as to think that simply because there are no forum posts from other members, that this thread was not well recieved.

Hi,

the Italian collectors who have answered they are in the just one!!!
If other members in pm have answered would be interesting to
understand what can add for to educate on the history of 29 SS Italia.
rgds
Quex

[BlackBelt]

Hi,

the Italian collectors who have answered they are in the just one!!!
If other members in pm have answered would be interesting to
understand what can add for to educate on the history of 29 SS Italia.
rgds
Quex

I agree it would be interesting, however it is up to them to post, not for me to do it on their behalf. Their info was very enlightening, and well researched.

[flashider]

Their info was very enlightening, and well researched.

.........Umbelievable..

This is a discussion forum....Please post their infos and researches without their names if you want!....

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

in some part of this thread, I remember that it was used the word "archaeology" to give an idea about the seriousness of a research.

Well, let's act in an archaeological way.

Somewhere, a wooden box was found, containing remains of military clothing; some decorations; documents and papers related to the military life and/or career of an Italian soldier.

That "somewhere" is the town, street, house and basement, where the wooden box was stored. Archaeologically, we could call it the "finding place" or "location".

One day, the box was opened (remember those photos taken by Harry Burton with Howard Carter opening the gilt wood shrines in Tut-Ankh-Amen's tomb?). Pity, here we don't have evidence of the wooden box with its content in "undisturbed" status or condition: that situation should have been documented.

Once documented that undisturbed status, it would have been necessary to document the strata of materials inside the box.

All papers, clothes, and the various objects in the box should have been photographed and entered in an inventory (something like an "excavation's journal").

The complex of location-material-preliminary studies-inventory-eyewitness of the "excavators", makes what we could call the "context".

This context and the pieces as a whole, should have been thoroughly studied to give an attribution and frame it under an historical point of view.

Back to the theme of this thread, again under an "archaeological" point of view, we see a piece that is "out-of-the-context": the same if a tomb-looter would have found Julius Caesar's tomb and, unaware of the immense damage done, he would have tried to sell a very important museum "Julius Caesar's sword". Of course, that de-contextualised piece would have been one of the many, many existing Roman swords, and the museum's experts would have said the looter: "thank you, but your piece is too expensive without a proof of its provenance".

In this case, we've seen an Italian helmet of the type distributed to Franco's troops during the Spanish civil war.

This helmet shows a handwritten note on the liner: the only readable part are the SS runes, and a little more. No further proof to attribute it to an Italian SS unit. No proof that the helmet was together with the papers, decorations and remains of military clothing, besides what was said to the actual owner of the helmet.

Furthermore, no scientifically based analysis, of the note written on the liner.

So, at the end of the story, if the actual owner of the helmet is happy; I'm happy with him.

But under an historical point of view, that is not an "Italian SS Helmet", but a "Spanish Civil War Helmet of Italian Production, with a Handwritten note of SS Runes and unreadable lettering".

For the actual owner, it could be a treasure; for the collecting world, it's just a "curious object".

No proof, no context, no evidence.

No Julius Caesar's sword.

Sincerely,

Elmar Lang

[CWP]

There is a lot of truth in Elmar's post.

[flashider]

Well done Elmar!

[JPhilip]

Hello,
sorry, i'm not a specialist concerning italian helmets, but what make everybody thinks (except the owner) that this particular helmet was produced at the time of the spanish war or shortly after ?
As there is no legible date of production..!?
the point of welding ?
the light grey-green color ?

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

the italian-made helmets for the Spanish troops on Franco's side has a typical tiny iron plate soldered to the front: it was used to mount a metal badge in the form of the Spanish eagle.

Kind regards,

E.L.

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

Would be exist the opportunity that this helmet (a clear example from spanish war) have been reissued at the end of the war?For example...many WWI adrian italian helmet were worn in the 20', 30' and during the WWII!!!
In any case I am sorry to note, whatever should be the originality of the item or not, that this thread now seems to be a trial....

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

yes, it could look like a trial, but besides some rudeness, this is an interesting discussion on how to attribute an artifact (in this case a helmet) to a specific period and/or historical context.

As we've seen, the piece put under discussion has for us Forum members and until now, no proven context, no evident document attributing it to a specific unit or person.

Yes, it could have theoretically happened, that some helmets made for the Spanish Army could have been issued to soldiers of the RSI Armed Forces, but I repeat, until an uncontroversially acceptable evidence, the proposed piece is a Spanish helmet with a partially unreadable and un-analyzed inscription.

The helmet has been correctly judged, with the accompanying data given from the owner; unsufficient to give a positive answer.

Sincerely,

Elmar Lang