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    Camoflage helmet paint? Links

    Forgive me if this has been posted, and I know most of you already know this. My analysis of a camoflage helmet, right after the first couple second gut reaction, is the paint. What color is it? Is it oxidized? A couple things I go by:

    1) German helmets were camoflage painted with German issue paints and those colors conformed to RALs for the Heer and RLMs for the Luftwaffe. RALs are still used today:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAL_(color_space_system)

    2) Camoflage schemes and colors were mandated by order, and on vehicles, equipment, etc., are associated directly with issue dates. Vehicles, particularly tanks, left the factories with extra paint later in the war and issue paints went to the depots to conform colors and camo schemes to orders. These paints were in a paste/powder form to be mixed with petrol and sprayed or wide brushed. Armored vehicle students and modellers have studied his stuff for years. This is worth reading:

    http://matadormodels.co.uk/tank_muse...ww2germany.htm
    http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/co...al-farben.html
    http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/co...lm-farben.html

    The picture links at the bottom of this page show period Luftwaffe equipment painted with RLM colors:
    http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm

    3) The common "Normandy" scheme, which is nothing more than a camoflage scheme set forth by order for ALL German AFVs is interesting. The tan/mustard or dunkelgelb 7028 base on helmets is much more "fast" i.e. adhesive, in my experience. It is said that this color is premixed and was NOT usually issued to be mixed. Vehicles left the factory with this factory applied over primer or over the previous grey and vehicles in the field were ordered overpainted with it. The Olivgrün and Rotbraun RALs were for sure issued in paste form to be mixed. I have found those colors to be much less "fast" in some instances. I can tell you first hand that one of these colors has a pronounced lead content and the other two do not.

    4) PAINT OXIDIZES! All things oxidize with time unless vacuum packed. Wood oxidizes, leather oxidizes, metals oxidize, and PAINT OXIDIZES. It gets old, loses its life. Guys that restore cars know all about this and the difference in old paints and new ones. It is difficult to "oxidize" paint as 60+ years of the slow effects of age can do. Paint oxidation means the paint "dies", almost like from the inside out. The colors are there, they just look dead. Modern fakes, and paint look bright, fresh, and that should be a warning.

    I'm not trying to create arguments, just put information out there for some to review. Make YOUR OWN BUYING DECISIONS based upon all information available, to include opinions, but include opinions from those without a financial interest or other interest in the deal.

    If the paint isnt real close to a RAL or RLM (they vary a bit) and the paint looks new, then it probably is.
    Kind regards,
    Kapt. Krabs

    #2
    Originally posted by Kapt. Krabs View Post
    Forgive me if this has been posted, and I know most of you already know this. My analysis of a camoflage helmet, right after the first couple second gut reaction, is the paint. What color is it? Is it oxidized? A couple things I go by:

    1) German helmets were camoflage painted with German issue paints and those colors conformed to RALs for the Heer and RLMs for the Luftwaffe. RALs are still used today:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAL_(color_space_system)

    2) Camoflage schemes and colors were mandated by order, and on vehicles, equipment, etc., are associated directly with issue dates. Vehicles, particularly tanks, left the factories with extra paint later in the war and issue paints went to the depots to conform colors and camo schemes to orders. These paints were in a paste/powder form to be mixed with petrol and sprayed or wide brushed. Armored vehicle students and modellers have studied his stuff for years. This is worth reading:

    http://matadormodels.co.uk/tank_muse...ww2germany.htm
    http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/co...al-farben.html
    http://www.miniatures.de/html/int/co...lm-farben.html

    The picture links at the bottom of this page show period Luftwaffe equipment painted with RLM colors:
    http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm

    3) The common "Normandy" scheme, which is nothing more than a camoflage scheme set forth by order for ALL German AFVs is interesting. The tan/mustard or dunkelgelb 7028 base on helmets is much more "fast" i.e. adhesive, in my experience. It is said that this color is premixed and was NOT usually issued to be mixed. Vehicles left the factory with this factory applied over primer or over the previous grey and vehicles in the field were ordered overpainted with it. The Olivgrün and Rotbraun RALs were for sure issued in paste form to be mixed. I have found those colors to be much less "fast" in some instances. I can tell you first hand that one of these colors has a pronounced lead content and the other two do not.

    4) PAINT OXIDIZES! All things oxidize with time unless vacuum packed. Wood oxidizes, leather oxidizes, metals oxidize, and PAINT OXIDIZES. It gets old, loses its life. Guys that restore cars know all about this and the difference in old paints and new ones. It is difficult to "oxidize" paint as 60+ years of the slow effects of age can do. Paint oxidation means the paint "dies", almost like from the inside out. The colors are there, they just look dead. Modern fakes, and paint look bright, fresh, and that should be a warning.

    I'm not trying to create arguments, just put information out there for some to review. Make YOUR OWN BUYING DECISIONS based upon all information available, to include opinions, but include opinions from those without a financial interest or other interest in the deal.

    If the paint isnt real close to a RAL or RLM (they vary a bit) and the paint looks new, then it probably is.
    Kind regards,
    Kapt. Krabs
    Thanks Mr. Krabs: Great links and observations. Brings back great memories of the model building days (and everyone, I'm not talking about the glue part ). This is a nice kick to one's memory on the proper paint utilized... and IMO provides an interesting and valid foundation for helmet painting. A very interesting study.

    Regards,

    J

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Killerbee View Post
      Thanks Mr. Krabs: Great links and observations. Brings back great memories of the model building days (and everyone, I'm not talking about the glue part ). This is a nice kick to one's memory on the proper paint utilized... and IMO provides an interesting and valid foundation for helmet painting. A very interesting study.

      Regards,

      J
      Ahh thanks Mr.Bee ! You know, I think some people get all caught up in trying to buy these things quick and looking for the quickest greenlight to buy, even if its from the seller and the guys hanging out with him behind the table, and they dont take time TO LEARN and STUDY. Thats the fun to me. Instead of looking at camo helmet collecting with horse blinders, people need to consult and listen to model builders, painters, armor enthusiasts, historians, etc. etc. Its an all in approach, not just "X says its real so it is and all of you who say differnet are jackasses"
      kind regarsd,
      Krabs

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Kapt. Krabs View Post
        Ahh thanks Mr.Bee ! You know, I think some people get all caught up in trying to buy these things quick and looking for the quickest greenlight to buy, even if its from the seller and the guys hanging out with him behind the table, and they dont take time TO LEARN and STUDY. Thats the fun to me. Instead of looking at camo helmet collecting with horse blinders, people need to consult and listen to model builders, painters, armor enthusiasts, historians, etc. etc. Its an all in approach, not just "X says its real so it is and all of you who say differnet are jackasses"
        kind regarsd,
        Krabs
        Mr Krabs: I would have to agree with you 100%. Also, I too love the "CSI" part of this hobby.... it makes it fun. I'm learning constantly and I have learn from your posts. Keep it up as I am enjoying them.

        Regards, J

        Comment


          #5
          If the paint isnt real close to a RAL or RLM (they vary a bit) and the paint looks new, then it probably is.
          Kind regards,
          Kapt. Krabs[/quote]

          I would disagree with that remark (except the new part, keeping in mind near mint camos do show up) . What about paint in occupied countries, local supplies of captured military or most likely civilian stocks that may have been pressed into service? Smaller units in various regional areas may have provided their own paint. It is dangerous to start coming up with tight parameters that everything must fit into. There are good camo helmets that are not these particular colors.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by nutmeg View Post
            I would disagree with that remark (except the new part, keeping in mind near mint camos do show up) . What about paint in occupied countries, local supplies of captured military or most likely civilian stocks that may have been pressed into service? Smaller units in various regional areas may have provided their own paint. It is dangerous to start coming up with tight parameters that everything must fit into. There are good camo helmets that are not these particular colors.
            I think we probably agree more than we dont, but let me clarify what we may disagree about: I'm sure there are isolated instances of this as one should be careful of "always" and "never". One should be more careful of excuses to explain that which makes little sense.

            Captured stocks of tropical paints were utilized in North Africa/Tunisia, but then again so was captured stocks of everything. Tan overpainted of vehicles was prescribed by order and a necessity. But remember how rare ORIGINAL "DAK" helmets are anyway, and how many of those are with "captured paint"?

            This is an area where knowledge OUTSIDE looking at German helmets trhough a toilet paper tube is necessary. Of the allies, how many paint camoflaged their helmets and vehicles (saving North Africa)? Why even specify RAL/RLM particular paints and color schemes and camo patterns? Plaase note that the PERMANENT change of equipment and issue items by painting was a PRESCRIBED thing, by order. Review the links provided. Besides the unavailablity of paint for the combat soldier, to paint an individual "camo" scheme on a helmet in derogation of order would be probematic, unless perhaps unit wide in some instances, shich was not the norm. Indeed the "Normandy"camo was merely that which followed order for vehicles in Western Europe!.

            Given orders, period pictures, evidence, logic, I cant and wont say some German troops never found a Belgian Sherwin Williams and start getting after it expressing their inner child on a helmet However, the chances are so slim as to not warrant serious discussion. No sir, I submit the obvious given the obvious: It is MORE dangerous to allow LOOSE parameters for "camo" painting hucksters to take advantage of. The German military was one of orders and parameters. I respect and understand your point, but you must admit the overwhelming majority of ORIGINAL camoflage helmets fit into "parameters".
            regards,
            Krabs
            Last edited by Kapt. Krabs; 08-26-2007, 08:51 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              Thanks for the great links!

              Comment


                #8
                thanks Mike. I put the wrong link in on one, this is the better one of my saved links, from the same site. I'm not completely disagreeing with Nutmeg, just stating an overall initial guideline for camoflage analysis. Futher along on the decision tree the "variances" or "exceptions", which I submit are rare, are taken into account. Original camos are tough to find, of those the "standard" patterns predominate. Thus oddbirds are much much more likely to be fakes and if well done, quite difficult to distinguish from real ones.

                Nutmeg is correct re variances because occupied countries manufactured RAL/RLM paints. There will be variances. There will be variances due to mixing. However, I submit there is MUCH MORE CONSISTENCY in color and pattern than differences.
                Regards,
                Krabs

                The appropriate link with overview:

                http://matadormodels.co.uk/tank_muse...ww2germany.htm

                Comment


                  #9
                  Kapt Krabs,

                  Great links and research provided. Alot to be learned.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    If the paint isnt real close to a RAL or RLM (they vary a bit) and the paint looks new, then it probably is.
                    Kind regards,
                    Kapt. Krabs


                    Hallo Kapitan
                    Interesting tread here, But I realy dont follow you when you think that the only paintcolours the germans used was the RAL paints that was suposed to be used for AFV and the likes(planes and ships).

                    Can I then ask you what sort of colour and paint they were using on their buildings , like the barracs the sat up everyvere they was for a longer period.
                    What about costal fortress and bunkers.
                    What sort of paint were used on the staff cars that wasnt used on the front.
                    And what sort of paint was used on the interiour in their houses and offices.

                    And regarding tanks, have you ever seen the pics of the last 10 or 15 panther tanks that the div Wiking used in the last batles on the easter'n front, Around lake Balaton.
                    I can promis you that was not any appproved colours.

                    And regarding the term "normandie camo", it should have been named
                    "Atlantic wall camos", because you can find that sort of camos in big part of Norway as well, and probably in Belgia, the Netherlands and Denmark also.

                    Regards
                    Gulli
                    Norway

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Gulli,

                      Could you post pictures of the Wiking references, as I have always had an interest in that Division.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Gulli makes a very good point. I know very well from what i've found myself that the Germans used anything and everything they had a use for, issued or not, military or civilian.
                        Collecting German award documents, other paperwork and photos relating to Norway and Finland.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Gulli, I'm not following you either . Fellows, I wasnt aware that the Germans camoflaged their offices. Combat vehicles would have been painted with the prescribed colors set for by order and the prescribed vehicle paints. One doesnt see convoys of German vehicles all in different colors like a Mardi Gras parade. They painted their vehicles dunkelgelb 7028 base coat and camoed them per order because that was the order. Further, offices and buildings and such would not seem to me to be on the front line. We can think of all kinds of unusual circumstances and various excuses, but do they really have much merit? Whitewash, different story. White wherever you could get it, but we arent talking about whitewash, we are talking about painted camo patterns.

                          German helmets in rough finish gray-green and Luft. blue grey were fine, and could be slapped with mud, covered with sacking, wire, inner tube bands for foliage, etc. German troops werent running around in a panic trying to find paint to paint their helmets. It wasn't necessary when one could do any number of things. My position is the camo PAINTED helmets were invariably those done with vehicles per order per issue paints. Static position helmets where the artillery pieces, etc., were painted would have been done as well. The reason we dont see alot of camo painted helmets was it was unnecessary, given easier options.

                          I'm glad Norway is referenced. Where were all these Norwegian camoflage helmets 10 years ago? I think the static troops manning defenses definitely camoed their helmets to match their positions, and since US troops didnt souveneir in Norway (they werent there), then I know there would be variants we dont know about. However, those are a very rare exception. I'm sure we could also sit here and say, "well people in Europe were big painters and into arts and crafts so how do you know a German unit didn't capture a paint store and paint all their helmets to represent their true individual feelings?" We dont know no German troops did that, but the odds are so remote as to not merit discussion (or excuse for a weird fresh helmet), and certainly the odds that any weird lids like that were brought back was remote still. I'm advocating common sense and not taking into account all kinds of unusual "what ifs". Make up your own minds fellows. If you believe the Germans painted their helmets like their offices and barracks, that's fine.
                          Kind regards,
                          Krabs

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jahmann View Post
                            And regarding the term "normandie camo", it should have been named
                            "Atlantic wall camos", because you can find that sort of camos in big part of Norway as well, and probably in Belgia, the Netherlands and Denmark also.

                            Regards
                            Gulli
                            Norway
                            Actually, those terms are like "Black Widow" to describe a P.08 with black resin grips They are collector fabricated terms. If you wanted to correctly identify that camo pattern it would be referred to as "HM 1943 181 Camouflage" As you correctly noted Gulli, it wasnt just Norway, or Normandy, or Belgium, etc.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              More links re German camouflage paint colors:

                              http://www.panzerworld.net/colours

                              http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

                              http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/camo.htm

                              Comment

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