Number of camoflage helmets?

[Kapt. Krabs]

Fellows,
Without taking my word for it, or Mr.Nutmeg's or anyone elses, I would ask that anyone with a question about the number of German WW2 helmets that were camoflage PAINTED, do this:

Get any period picture book and go through it cover to cover counting camoflage PAINTED helmets you see. Don't count mud covered, dirt covered, wire wrapped, covers, bb straps, inner tube rubber bands, sacking, etc., just PAINTED CAMOFLAGE PATTERN helmets. Nope, whitewash doesn't count

Right now, in the porcelein library I have "Wehrmacht, Illustrated history of the German Army in WW2" and "The German Soldier in WW2". Both have hundreds and hundreds of close up good pictures of troops in the field. Camoflage painted helmets can be counted on one hand. Period pictures of many are rare. The exception is perhaps a picture where a whole unit surrendered and that whole unit has them painted.

The point? Not that camoflage helmets don't or didn't exist. It's that, disregarding what people selling them say, they are far rarer than the offerings today. There were relatively few to begin with, they weren't "pretty" or showed decals so they weren't brought home like the others and there wasn't huge interest in them until the last 10 years.
kind regards,
Kapt. Krabs

[TONY Q.W.]

Looking at great collections such us Mr. Ron's and of course many others, I can conclude that there were and are a lot of them around. Look how many para helmets we though were in existanse just 10 years ago and look how many are today to boot cammoed too. All because of the internet. Going through a book and looking which helmets were cammoed and which are not does not mean much.
All in all and IMHO there are plenty honest cammo helmets out there. On the other hand there are more than plenty bad ones.

[Martin E]

RonR has 1000 helmets in his collection, 20% are camos = 200 camo helmets in one collection. He is a first generation collector.

[regiment739]

There are bound to be lots of cammo helmets around, late in the war the Germans had to become very good/experts at cammo to avoid getting shot up or bombed or having rockets fired at them by the allies. It makes perfect common sense to paint the helmets. The SS introduced fantastic cammo clothing, for the day they were way beyond anything else. Even now days the Armies of the world are re introducing reversible helmet covers and clothing.

Ben

[Kapt. Krabs]

Guys, I've got about 40 helmets in what remains of my humble collection. I was poor and young back when the getting was good 10 of those are camos. That doesn't mean that 25% of helmets are camos, it just means that is what I collected. I kicked the bushes hard, all across the country. I passed on nice camos if they were duplicates. Wish I didn't. If I could find several nice ones a year I considered myself very lucky.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree that there are "more" FJ helmets now. Back then if you wanted one you could get one pretty easily, and if you wanted to spend more than $500 for one, people would have knocked you down with them, like a stoning but with M.38s Just because you "see" more of them on the internet by Googling, doesn't mean they were hiding then or unavailable. Just like hot women. Plenty more to be seen on the net and quickly, but are there really more?

Sorry, there were many more ORIGINAL camoflage helmets, FJ helmets, all kinds of militaria etc. available and cheaper back then, that's why it's so much more expensive now. The stuff is spread out and people put it on the net. As far as camos, originals have always been scarce and are MORE scarce today. There are many more fakes because fakes are bringing in some cases $3500. It's just simple economics and hucksterism and fakery, which rises in severity and frequency with the rise in profits.

AGAIN GUYS INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO ME OR ANYONE ELSE LOOK AT THE PERIOD PICTURES. THEREIN LIES THE ANSWER.
kind regards,
Krabs

[Simon O.]

I think a more representative percentage might be gleaned from ground dug lids but you'd need samples from all fronts and thousands of them. Photos i guess is another way but it's clear camouflage policy varied greatly from unit to unit so as broader range as possible of units from all fronts is needed.

Trying to do it from collections only gives you an idea of the percentage in the collecting community.

How do winter camo lids stack up as a percentage in collections against other types of camo? White must clearly be the most used paint colour applied to a helmet by any German soldier but is that reflected in collections?

[Kapt. Krabs]

hello Simon,
I respectfully disagree. Period pics are all theatres and show what the helmets looked like then. That is a representative of what the German helmet universe.

Ground dug represent one AO, unit, etc. It is many times hard to tell a whole lot about the paint. Mr. Jean Loupe (hope I spelled it right) has posted some outstanding posts here. I think he earlier stated of 17 ground dug helmets he has found, ONE had some form of yellow paint on it. Was that camo or something else? 1/17 = about 6 %. Period pics will show reality. Looking at all the claimed camoflage helmets today one could think every German soldier had access to a paint store, brushes, got a merit badge for helmet art and every GI brought back a camoflage helmet....or two
kind regards,
Kapt. Krabs

[TONY Q.W.]

There are many more fakes because fakes are bringing in some cases $3500. It's just simple economics and hucksterism and fakery, which rises in severity and frequency with the rise in profits.
Krabs[/quote]




Krabs, that goes for all categories of ww2 german collecting (uniforms, medals, soft cap gear etc.) I don't think you're telling us anything new here (respectfully speaking) . Of course fakes are getting better and better thus more attention should be exersided but that includes everything. Internet brought out much more original items in the light and at the same time fakery took off in a high speed.

Yes I agree with you that not all camo helmets that are shown here and believed to be original are originals BUT hey, let's not go into the other extreme and announced true original helmets fakes just becouse of personal beliefs and gut feelings etc.

[TONY Q.W.]

In addition, look into Eugene's site and see how many white camo helmets he and his team find and these are a lot. That would put the numbers into perspective regarding camo helmets.

[camopara]

I think your first premise on two basic books is wrong. There are plenty of books out there when you really start to look at them that show plenty of camouflage helmets. Look in any of the Heimdal Normandy series, AK series and those of the Eastern front.

[Mike Bollow]

By 1944 camo helmets were not only practical, but "fashionable" at the front. Usually when you see one guy in a Gruppe or a Zug with one... everybody has one too. That's because they either got ahold of paint and the majority decided to use it, or in some cases it was ordered by the Zugfuhrer or Gruppenfuhrer. In the GroBdesutchland book "God, Honor and Fatherland" the last few pages are pics of Grenadiers on the Ostfront and they ALL have hand painted camo helmets. That's the only book I cracked open after reading this thread, and I am sure if I had the time or energy to go through the whole library I'd find many more.

That being said, non-painted helmets were by far the most common. No one denies this. A scary note: If you look at what's out there to buy, there are not many no decal, no camo helmets. I think that's because these are being gobbled up by fakers.

Mike

[TONY Q.W.]

I think your first premise on two basic books is wrong. There are plenty of books out there when you really start to look at them that show plenty of camouflage helmets. Look in any of the Heimdal Normandy series, AK series and those of the Eastern front.

Very correct! Also in the book Afrikakorps (Rommel's tropical army in color) by Bernd Peitz the only pics with helmets have only cammo ones

[Mike Osbourne]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but just some personal observations. I started collecting in 1960 while in grade school. This has been an on again off again thing through the years and though I have never owned more than 20 helmets at any given time, several hundred have passed through my hands - both good and bad. It may well be that the internet has brought more of the vet bring backs out into the market. It is also true that as my father's generation passes on some items hidden for years are coming out of attics and footlockers. I must say that I never saw a camo helmet until the last 10 years with the exception of a DAK or in books. Perhaps my area (coastal South Carolina) had a sparse amount of camo's but most of the items I turned up were pretty standard. While acknowledging that there are many good camo helmets out there, I am convinced that the fakes out number the good ones by a large percentage. I went through a period where I experimented with camo painting and ageing just to see what might be done and I must say it ain't hard to learn how to make a fairly convincing helmet. I do not consider myself anything other than an informed amateur collector and I have no quarrel with anyone who believes that the large numbers of camo now available are mostly real. I do say though - follow the money. Look at how SS are faked and realize that a camo is easier to do since one does not have to worry about proper decals. Just personal thoughts. You may agree or disagree.

[Paul M]

I have an extensive library and video collection and I have gone through them looking specifically for camo helmets. I feel that there were plenty, and my books and videos support that.
Remember, there were many more pictures taken in the early stages of the war than later on. There were plenty of Camo helmets in Normandy and Italy.
The other point is that camo helmets were not popular with the collectors in the
60s and 70s, so they were not seen.
Paul

[Mike Bollow]

'I am convinced that the fakes out number the good ones by a large percentage.'

I agree with this AND I agree with the fact that real camos existed in decent numbers at the end of the war.

I guess you either have to get one straight from the vet or simply love what you buy for how it looks on your shelf and pray it's real...