Austrian M18 cut out.

[Hun Helmet]

This listing is good for a laught anyway. When I wrote the seller and told him why it was a bad fake I learned something new The Austrians made M18 cuts out too and in size 66

http://cgi.ebay.com/Austrian-k-u-k-H...QQcmdZViewItem


PS, I am 38 today and wehrmacht-awards.com was the very first entity I heard happy B day from. Made my day.

[heinrich66]

The helmet is total crap.

BTW. I went 30 today- also happy birthday

[blitzmilit]

The helmet is total crap.

BTW. I went 30 today- also happy birthday

Happy Birthday to you two!
You`re the couple of the day

Matt

[mayer]

Horrible !!!
Anthony

[Charlie_Vaughn]

Actually - the Austrian's did manufacture a version of this helmet in size 66 and that is not crap. This is well documented in the German version of Ludwig Baer's helmet books, and there are photos to prove it.

Its just that many collectors want to insist there were only the 64cm ET pattern helmet shells, and that they refuse to believe anything else.

These Austrian helmets were manufactured after WWI, and were used in the transition period between the wars.

However, it does appear this one has been postwar repainted and the liner of course replaced - but the shell is original.-C

[LeeM]

I am missing something? Why does the seller think it is Austrian? It looks like an M18. Charlie, I do not own Baer’s German language books. Could you post a scan of the pages referring to Austrian cut-outs.
<O</O
Regards,
<O</O
Lee

[Hun Helmet]

I was wondering if anyone was going to post that the Austrians made a cut out. It is news to me and I take your word for it. I do not however believe that the ebay example could be a real one. Or that the Austrians would produce a helmet with such a cut of poor workmenship.

If it be real I expect biding to go through the roof on it as they must be exceptionally rare.

PS, interesting that someone else here shares my B day

[Charlie_Vaughn]

I don't have a photo to post, and actually don't carry membership so I can't post photos.

But let me provide additional info anyway.

The standard ET 64 made M18 ear cut out was produced during WWI in very small numbers. Many were destroyed after the war, but some were retained and issued to Reichswehr troops. At the close of WWI this helmet was in fact "state of the art" and likely to be the next mass produced helmet for all German forces.

While the Reichswehr used all WWI helmet models from 1919 through 1933, the ear cut out continued to be used and one can see that it was generally issued to artillery, cavalry, and machine gun infantry units as well as to officers as "the preferred helmet" - meaning, the "most advanced helmet" of the day. When the M33 prototypes came along, and the M35 prototypes, these models were favored as future replacements for the M18 ear cut out.

But, in the days between 1919 and 1933 when the ear cut out was intended to be the next mass produced helmet, there were few to be issued, and what was there to be used were all in the "medium" sized 64 shell.

So, we know that at least the Austrian government contracted to produce the same shell in size 66 to expand the number available - this was in the 1920's.

These shells are slightly less heavy than the ET model, generally carry no maker initials other than the standard production code in the dome, or on the crown of the helmet.

These helmets are not fakes, but 1920's commercially produced varieties that were intended to supplement the German versions available.

After 1934, these Austrian models were reincorporated into the Wehrmacht were they were typically repainted and double decalled. They also received the M31 liner as the updated version which was more modern.

I have inspected a few of these in the past and they are original - but I think there are few of them and they probably didn't produce many.

The one listed is a good shell, but it does appear to have some repaired rust pitting, and also new paint, liner band, chinstrap, and leather.-C

[Daniel Murphy]

These helmets are not fakes, but 1920's commercially produced varieties that were intended to supplement the German versions available.

The only helmet made like this then, were the officers dress lightweight helmets made from aluminum and such. The dress helmets are a legitimate item, but this is not one of them!


Number 1. I see nothing to prove that this helmet shell is or was Austrian. The modern crappy paint job covers whatever was there.

Number 2. There were 3 helmets used by the A-H into the 30's Berndorfer, M16/M17 and the M17 Hungarian. Thats It. They never made a M18, because they never had the chinstrap problems that the German M16s had.

Number 3. This helmet looks like it was made by a kid in shop class from an original GERMAN shell.

Number 4. You state you (alone) have seen and examined several and state the German Baer Book documents it. Yet, you have no photo and no proof. I have the English Baer book and also have the book by Radovic and Haselgrove. Neither of them document such a helmet.

Number 5. You wouldn't be the seller would you? If you have a photo (not photoshop) or a scan of the book that will document what you have said, send it to me by email and I will post it. I will be very interested in what happens next.

Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

These shells are slightly less heavy than the ET model, generally carry no maker initials other than the standard production code in the dome, or on the crown of the helmet.

This description also fits the copies made last week by IMA in pakistan or wherever and sold all day long for $85.
Dan Murphy

[darryl-P]

Coming to Charlie's rescue; here is a pic that appears in one of Ludwig Baer's German language helmet books. This is another point that I have to make with the collectors of today...they tend to disregard anything that isn't written in english and hence, lose a lot of good information on helmets. Ludwig Baer (for those collectors who have no idea who he is) is, and continues to be, a pioneer among German helmet collectors. Ludwig, a German 10 year old boy in 1945, was actually collecting German helmets right at the end of the war. He has many books on the subject that serious collectors should occasionally consult.

I agree that other helmets were constructed in the "ear cut-out style" in the post-war years, only the ET 64 was done so during WW1. Additionally, I do not believe that the one on offer on eBay is a righteous example. It is just too crudely done for my tastes.

By the way, the gyst of the German text above the photos of the helmets says "here are two helmets which deviate from the norm for ear cut-outs...left, an example with the M91 chinstrap lugs and right, an example with the vent lugs normally seen with helmets sized 66 and 68".

Cheers,

[LeeM]

Thanks Darryl for posting the section from Baer’s book and explaining it. I still don’t understand what would make these of Austrian origin. I could be wrong, but with my rudimentary understanding of German, the text does not identify them as Austrian. I know that lightweight “parade” cut-out helmets were manufactured by German companies. The helmets pictured above appear to be combat helmets. It certainly makes sense that old stocks would be altered to the more “advanced” model (cut-out), but I was under the impression that neither Germany or Austria actually manufactured new combat helmets in the 1919 to 1930 time frame. Is this correct or am I all wrong?
<O</O
Regards,
<O</O
Lee

[darryl-P]

Lee,

You are correct on both counts...neither pictured helmet has been identified in the text as Austrian and between the wars, no combat helmets (or perhaps I should say no combat-quality helmets) were produced. The RZM helmet was envisaged to have been a combat helmet for the SS and SS-VT however the liner system fell far short.

In my opinion the helmet on the left is an ET64 pre-production model that was modified to incorporate the M91 chinstrap. The one on the right is possibly a commercially made Austrian helmet...hard to say without seeing it in better photos but that's what it looks like to me.

Cheers,

[LeeM]

Any more Info?

Don’t mean to high-jack the thread, but this is quite interesting and a learning experience for me. I agree Darryl, the one looks like an ET cut-out with the M91 type chinstrap post rivet. It is interesting how far aft the rivet head appears to be. I was hoping that I could impose on you and Charlie to post a little additional information on these. Are they considerably lighter than the typical combat helmet or just somewhat lighter as would be found on some of the WWII civil helmets. Any idea which company manufactured these and which years they were produced? As they were Austrian government contracted, were they strictly military issue or also a private purchase item? Any other information you guys could share would be greatly appreciated.
<O</O
Thanks,
<O</O
Lee

[Daniel Murphy]

As they were Austrian government contracted, were they strictly military issue or also a private purchase item? Any other information you guys could share would be greatly appreciated.
<O</O

I have no problem with information published in German, but I have never had access to the book you refer to. It is no less reliable in my opinion and indeed may be more reliable. However, I see nothing here that would indicate either of these helmets is anything more than a one-off variant or experimental model. The fact that Baer is the most knowledgeable in this field and considers these to be experimental or unique, is also telling. It is only natural that there would have been some experimentation before the final decision was made. Since the cut out is supposed to post date the introduction of the M1918, the one with M91 lugs is very interesting. Perhaps the cutout was being considered before the introduction of the M18, but that they weren't sure of how it would work with the M91 strap. The fact that the cutout on the 66/68 looks more crude than the other means it could have been hand done on an M16 to illustrate the concept that was later produced.

The WW1 machine pistol "MP 18 I" is called the "I" because it was the 9th type of experimental that was adopted. The experimentation actually began in 1916. The Mauser HSc is called the "c" for the same reason. Troops had been complaining about the M16 since 1916. Some thought it too heavy, some thought it "whistled" too much to be able to hear. Experimentation is one thing, a contract to make these helmets for the Austrians, is quite another.

I see nothing to indicate an Austrian connection to either helmet. I do not see how one can say that the 66/68 looks like an Austrian helmet from a B&W photo. If you can, you are better than me, I need to see paint color , markings or a liner or other fittings. The helmet contour and the lugs are the same for German and Austrian. Yet some are willing to just accept this and run with it. Go ahead, buy up all of the last week modified M16 size 66 helmets on ebay, I won't stop you. Maybe someday your dreams will come true and they will all be really rare Austrian cut-outs. They have some nice PLMs too don't forget them, they will be rare someday too.
Dan Murphy