Do you think this is a KIA helmet?

[Frosch]

All SS Divisions wore black before the war started. Additionally, what is a parade helmet doing getting worn into combat. Allgemeine folks only did parades and such. There is a disticntion that I think a lot of helmet collectors are failing to make.

Stephan,

There were no SS divisions before the war started. The Leibstandarte was only a reinforced brigade at the outbreak of war (sources "Die Leibstandarte, volume 1" by Rudolf Lehmann and "Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS 1939-1945" by Tessin). Quoting the staff war diary, the divisional history of Das Reich by Weidinger gives 10 October 1939 as the date from which Division Kempf, regiments Germania and Der Führer and Pionier-Bataillon began assembling to form SS-Verfügungs-Division. The formal date of establishment is given as 19 October 1939.

In a directive referring to the issue of helmet covers dated 1935, the Chef des SS-Hauptamptes ordered that black helmets still in SS stocks were only to be used for parade purposes. Although I can't find a definite date for the introduction of the semi-matt field grey finish, this was most likely used on the 1935 model helmets first issued to the SS-VT from 1936 onwards and these helmets were certainly issued together with black helmets to SS-VT troops at the beginning of the war.

Since the Wehrmacht had control over and priority for equipment supplies at the beginning of the war, the SS-VT used everything it could lay its hands on, including black and field grey helmets, square and triangular grey Zeltbahn shelter quarters (besides those issued in SS camouflage pattern), captured weapons and refurbished Gewehr 98 rifles of WW1 vintage.

/David

[Ty Smith]

David,

I'm not sure about the other but I'm certain you are correct that the "SS used everything it could lay its hands on". I was surprised when I learned that the SS was actually not given the best equipment and weapons. This has been documented fairly well. They actually cheated and stole to get the equipment they got, espeically in the early years.

[Stephan Wahl]

Okay, but I thought we were talking Totenkopf here. They were formed in 1937, I thought. Oh. What I think you are trying to express is there were only SS regiments before the war. Cause it sounded like you were saying that before 1939, the SS didn't exist. The SS oberbayern was the 1st SS Regiment right. Stephan, this is what happens when you don't have military experince. Thank God.

Stephan,

the date from which Division Kempf, regiments Germania and Der Führer and Pionier-Bataillon began assembling to form SS-Verfügungs-Division. The formal date of establishment is given as 19 October 1939.



/David

[Stephan Wahl]

He (my grandfather) did tell me he spent a lot of time in Munich before the war doing "monument duty". He used to stand in front of various buildings, or statues looking, well, intimidating. Does this mean he WAS in the Allgemeine SS? When I asked him, he said, "What do you mean Allgemeine Stahl Helm? They only wore caps." Keep in mind, it's not uncommon that you guys actually know more about the infrastructure of SS than do the very soldiers that served in it. When I showed him the picture of the Blood Flag carrier in Baer's book, he nearly had a heart-attack. "Hi den ei, da ist einer!"

Further complicating my whole process is knowing only what my grandfather, and later my brother have told me about the SS. Could it be that my grandfather was temporarily in the Allgemeine SS until they deployed his unit? Im confused.

Stephan,



In a directive referring to the issue of helmet covers dated 1935, the Chef des SS-Hauptamptes ordered that black helmets still in SS stocks were only to be used for parade purposes. Although I can't find a definite date for the introduction of the semi-matt field grey finish, this was most likely used on the 1935 model helmets first issued to the SS-VT from 1936 onwards and these helmets were certainly issued together with black helmets to SS-VT troops at the beginning of the war.



/David

[Stephan Wahl]

So, I don't understand. Is the statement, "Only Semi-gloss black SS helmets are Allgemeine.", true? Is there a chart that I can go to that shows who was under whose command and at what time, and what they were charged with doing? All I know is the history of my Grandfathers division and battalion. SSTK Oberbayern. Formed 1937 in Dachau, Bayern. Trained and did various things up to the invasion of France. He was there a few months, then he was called into Barbarrosa in June on 1941, when the TK was turned into the 3rd Inf. Div. Then he was injured a few months later. He was sent to Berlin, where he met my grandmother and worked supply to the end of the war. The Division was sent to the Western front where it turned into the 3rd Panzer Div.

[darryl-P]

[QUOTE=Stephan Wahl]So, I don't understand. Is the statement, "Only Semi-gloss black SS helmets are Allgemeine.", true? [/QUOTE]

Stephan,

To reply your helmet question above, the answer is no, not true. Most black SS helmets are in fact SS-VT (Verfugungstruppe ) and in your family's case, SS-TV (Totenkopfverbande) headgear. The Allgemeine-SS were mostly utility troops, used for special occassions such as guard duty for functions, policing, security, etc. As such, they normally only wore the visor cap. The VT and TV troops were the actual armed and military-trained soldiers of the pre-war SS. After 1940 they became the Waffen-SS.

For ceremonial and parade purposes the VT/TV wore black steel helmets to go along with their black service uniforms. The helmets were painted in a satin-black texture although some officers (mostly) shined them up with wax as evidenced in period photos.

After the outbreak of war the black helmets were put away and feldgrau ones used. Many of the early transitional and RZM helmets were eventually melted down for their metal content during the war, although some survived to be issued to the civil organizations (RLB, Volksturm) in the later years. Most of the M35s were repainted feldgrau and re-issued to frontline troops.

This is why original black SS helmets are so rare today.

[Stephan Wahl]

Alright. I think I'm beginning to understand. There are (as you guys often say) so many self-appointed authorities on WWII Germany, and helmets and what not, that it's easy to get mislead and completely confused. Seeing as this info has just come from the man with (as I've heard) the most comprehensive collection of Allgemeine helmets, I'll go with that. So my warning to the guy from the last page was right then. He shouldn't be so quick to lable a black SS helmet an Allgemeine helmet, especially not one with a bullet dent in it.

[Stephan Wahl]

Last Question

Okay. My last question then is, the shinny black helmets would then be worn by the Allgemeine SS, say for example, if a cap just wouldn't do during an occasion? Kind of a "sonder ausnahme/special exception"? Hense, so few of them exist?[QUOTE=darryl-P]

So, I don't understand. Is the statement, "Only Semi-gloss black SS helmets are Allgemeine.", true? [/QUOTE]

Stephan,

To reply your helmet question above, the answer is no, not true. Most black SS helmets are in fact SS-VT (Verfugungstruppe ) and in your family's case, SS-TV (Totenkopfverbande) headgear. The Allgemeine-SS were mostly utility troops, used for special occassions such as guard duty for functions, policing, security, etc. As such, they normally only wore the visor cap. The VT and TV troops were the actual armed and military-trained soldiers of the pre-war SS. After 1940 they became the Waffen-SS.

For ceremonial and parade purposes the VT/TV wore black steel helmets to go along with their black service uniforms. The helmets were painted in a satin-black texture although some officers (mostly) shined them up with wax as evidenced in period photos.

After the outbreak of war the black helmets were put away and feldgrau ones used. Many of the early transitional and RZM helmets were eventually melted down for their metal content during the war, although some survived to be issued to the civil organizations (RLB, Volksturm) in the later years. Most of the M35s were repainted feldgrau and re-issued to frontline troops.

This is why original black SS helmets are so rare today.

[darryl-P]

Stephan,

You've missed the point slightly. The Allgemeine-SS did not 'normally' wear the black helmet. Photos of Allgemeine troopers wearing them are quite rare. It was the Leibstandarte and the pre-war VT/TV troops who wore them.

Look around in books and see how many period photos you can find of Allgemeine guys wearing black helmets. Unfortunately the word "allgemeine" has come to mean "black" in many collector's vocabularies.

[Stephan Wahl]

Hmmmmmmmm.....So how do you know if you're looking at a Allgemeine helmet?

[Stephan Wahl]

Should I start a "What is an Allgemenine SS Helmet" thread in which you can tell everybody what one is? I thought when people said, "Allgemeine SS Helmet" they meant Semi-Gloss black parade helmet. Seeing as they are some of the most sought after SS helmets.

[darryl-P]

Hmmmmmmmm.....So how do you know if you're looking at a Allgemeine helmet?

You know you have an Allgemeine-SS helmet if inside the trooper has written his name and SS-Standarte to which he belongs...ie, "Snorkel, Hans SS.1.I.55". Or, if it was a SS-VT helmet, "Dinkel, Gerhard 7/SS G".

It is impossible to tell from the outside.

[Ty Smith]

Stephan, Try the book, "Soliders of Destruction" By Charles Sydnor. I know the author and have met him on several occasions. He really knows his stuff, It's a technical book and over my head.

Anyone else heard of this book or have comments ?

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Ty, I have this book in my collection libray. It is a must if you are interested in the Totenkopf Division. But I must say it is very dated. Much new info has come to light since it was printed. It is many years now since I read it.


Cheers, Ade.

[Stephan Wahl]

I'll look for it (and a few others).