Fantasy badge or copy of real badge

[D. Ricks]

This I'm sure this is a copy but was it ever made? Thanks

[fabioq]

Yes. It was an Italian Socialist Republic (RSI) honour badge for submarine crews who fought in the battle of Atlantic. It was introduced on 27 May 1944.

[D. Ricks]

Thank you. Do you have picture of a authentic one?

[andrea]

Yes. It was an Italian Socialist Republic (RSI) honour badge for submarine crews who fought in the battle of Atlantic. It was introduced on 27 May 1944.

Hello Fabioq, can you also inform us about dimension, material of original one, where or who was the manufacturer, when it was awarded and who were the recipients at Betasom on June 1944, a crew of submarine (?) or someone of the S.Marco Regiment(?) did someone of Volunteers of France had this badge with him back in Italy ? Have you also photos of this badge worn? Some Vet dedcriptions?
Thanks a lot
Andrea

[fabioq]

A lot of questions. But I know only what is said in "Submarine Insignia and Submarine Services of the World" of Lieutnant Commander W.M Thornton, 1997-

Textually:

" On 27 May, 1944, the Navy of the RSI authorized the wearing of the
nine special war service badges previously authorized by the Royal
Italian Navy. The design was the same but without the royal crown.
The qualifications for the awards were the same as before.
An Honour Badge was introduced on 27 May, 1944, for submarine
crews who took part in the Battle of the Atlantic. It bore a bow view of
a submarine, above which was a horizontal fasces in the centre of
which was a disc bearing a Swastika. A wide oval border carried the
inscription ‘Atlantico Fedelta 8 Settembre 1943’. The badge was made of silver metal with the background of a blue sky.
A special badge was also produced for subaqua assault swimmers
that was not specifically a submarine badge, but allied to it. It depicted
an arm thrust up from the sea grasping a harpoon. It was surrounded by
combined wreath and scroll bearing the inscription ‘Mezzi de Assalto’.
At the top there was an anchor in the centre of which was a disc bearing
the letter ‘Xfl’ (10th Flotilla). It was made in greyish metal.
Towards the end of the war an Atlantic Division Combat sleeve
badge was created. It took the form of a frosted silver metal shield
48mm >< 79mm depicting a dolphin swimming around a short Roman
sword below which was inscribed ‘Divisione Atlantica’. The device
had five small holes to enable it to be sewn to the uniform. It was
intended for Italian naval personnel (of the RSI) serving at the Atlantic
bases of Germany and France from which Italian submarines operated and
who stayed behind to combat the advancing Allied troops.
Numerous other special badges were created to commemorate
various combat units. Most took the form of a submarine on waves
surrounded by a combined wreath and scroll. Many included the letter
‘Xe’ in the design. The elite SCIRE Submarine Battalion from 1943 to 1945
wore a gold device resembling the silver rating’s badge but with the letter ‘Xa’
(10th) centrally located just above the dorsal fin of the dolphin. The
wording on the outer band was ‘Btg Sommergibili SCIRE’. "

[D. Ricks]

Thank you fabioq for this detailed information. Is there a chance mine is real? I couldn't find one online to compare it to.

[Semovente]

This example of an original prototype is from Fausto Sparaino's book on RSI badges ...& describes the badge as breast badge of similar size to the German production !..made of war metal with painted light blue background ..it has a safety pin on the back...to be worn by sailors from Bordeaux who after Sept 8th remained loyal to the cause ...but the badge was it says never issued !!??

[D. Ricks]

Thank you Semovente for the photo. How would someone copy the badge. Were the prototypes released to use to cast copies? Has anyone seen any copies for sale anywhere? I really don't remember where I got this badge. I know it wasn't online or any military show.

[Semovente]

Thank you Semovente for the photo. How would someone copy the badge. Were the prototypes released to use to cast copies? Has anyone seen any copies for sale anywhere? I really don't remember where I got this badge. I know it wasn't online or any military show.

Well clever fakers with computers etc can scan pics to make moulds !..yours looks cast & the pin on the
back is a modern type ive seen on other copies..but the bit that is also interesting is it describes in the text the badge in relation to the ' German production ' !?...so are there others ?..but German made ?....Semovente

[andrea]

A lot of questions. But I know only what is said in "Submarine Insignia and Submarine Services of the World" of Lieutnant Commander W.M Thornton, 1997-

Textually:

" On 27 May, 1944,
An Honour Badge was introduced on 27 May, 1944, for submarine
crews who took part in the Battle of the Atlantic. It bore a bow view of
a submarine, above which was a horizontal fasces in the centre of
which was a disc bearing a Swastika. A wide oval border carried the
inscription ‘Atlantico Fedelta 8 Settembre 1943’. The badge was made of silver metal with the background of a blue sky "

Fabio a “lot of question” is the difference between a “google search” , and to know if the badge was / wasnt made and issued, RSI badge are in a ” dangerous dark area” if you answer “yes” to the questionit existed or not , you have to explain it ( if you like to do it obviously!) for all of us who always needs this info.....or simply say: “ i found this information on the web”, nothin wrong on it!!thanks to share us your research!!
Friendly
Andrea

[D. Ricks]

I understand they can do digital copies but you need dimensions and such. It is probably not cheap to make the initial setup and would have to sell quite a few to make a profit. Plus if they never issued them it would be foolish to make them unless they were selling a bunch as replicas or a few for big money to make it cost effective. Does anyone have link to these badges being sold.

[Semovente]

I understand they can do digital copies but you need dimensions and such. It is probably not cheap to make the initial setup and would have to sell quite a few to make a profit. Plus if they never issued them it would be foolish to make them unless they were selling a bunch as replicas or a few for big money to make it cost effective. Does anyone have link to these badges being sold.

There is always a market for those who are not in possesion of the facts !...

[D. Ricks]

This is true but where are they being sold? If someone went to the expense of making them there should be a bunch of them on the internet for them to make their money back. Again I can't find any being sold anywhere. Is there any other post here about them?

[MarcoPennisi]

I understand they can do digital copies but you need dimensions and such. It is probably not cheap to make the initial setup and would have to sell quite a few to make a profit. Plus if they never issued them it would be foolish to make them unless they were selling a bunch as replicas or a few for big money to make it cost effective. Does anyone have link to these badges being sold.

You don’t necessairily need dimensions, you can also approximate them either proportionally to a similar badge and/or working them out on a pic. Definitely you don’t need dimensions if you take a cast of an original. I witnessed the die sketch of a repro cap badge being guessworked according to the height of the related old hat and a period table showing the hat in question.
Many RSI badges have been reproduced (some of them since the ‘70s) for veterans, more often than not in a limited quantity , and this is outside capitalistic intentions. Anyway, a cultural association of sub aficionados here counts some 5,000 members who does represent a major pool for offering sub related memorabilia.
AFAIK these badges are not currently produced and marketed. I’m not aware of these vintage copies listed on the InterNet, but I can occasionally notice stuff like that being offered in the real world (flea markets, fellow collectors, militaria shows, thrift stores) . Or keep a watch on eBay.

[D. Ricks]

That makes sense I didn't think about that. Thank you Marco