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    Questions regarding Italian M34 helmets

    Hi,

    I have been researching Greek WW2 helmets for some time now and I have some questions regarding the Italian M34 helmets. I would be really grateful for any assistance.

    It is widely accepted among collectors that the shells of the Greek M34/39 helmets were produced in Italy, and after arriving in Greece unfinished, production, including painting and the fitting of liners and chinstraps, was completed locally. According to this scenario, not all of the ordered helmets arrived in Greece, due to the outbreak of the conflict between the two countries on October 28, 1940.

    My first question is: Is there any archival evidence of this in Italy? Is there really evidence that a huge stock of rejected M34s was sold unfinished to Greece?

    Although this is the most widely known story among collectors in Greece, it first appeared in some military history magazines about two decades ago. Due to the lack of archival sources, those contained several mistakes.

    On the other hand, a relatively recent publication shows evidence that the truth might be different. The proceedings of the Greek Supreme Council of National Defense were found and published (K. Vlassis, "Οι Εξοπλισμοί της Ελλάδος 1936 - 1940, Doureios Ippos, Athens, 2013). They make mention of the competition for the "new" helmets between six Greek, German and Czech companies, unfortunately without stating the suggested helmet types or any possible prototype designs. However, it is clearly stated that after eleven months of repeated competitions and trials, the winner was a relatively small Greek industrial unit, based on the island of Kea, the "Greek Enamel and Metalworks Industry" of Ath. Konstas (Record No. 20, 14/12/1936, pages 104 - 107).

    Two further interesting points are mentioned in the document. Among the winning company's terms is their request for the import of Swedish steel, and the evaluation commitee's report, stating that the aforementioned company can indeed handle the production of a helmet as a whole. With a contract of 250.000 units to be handed over to the Army General Depot of Pereaus in a timeframe of ten months, and an estimated monthly production of 50.000 units, it looks like the plan had been covered.

    A later contract for 3.665 helmets for Royal Air Force ground personnel was accepted on 13/6/1940 (Record No. 67, page 440). Again, the contract is for complete helmets, with a possible import of steel from the US. No mention of possible delays is made between the two documents, something that is further suggesting that the initial order had been fully delivered. So, in this light, it seems that the Greek M34/39s were Greek copies of the Italian M34s and that their production was a complete, and not partial, work of the Kea stationed industrial unit.

    So, my second question is: Are there any photos of pre-war, Italian made M34s, with Italian made liners and chinstraps? Could we possibly compare profiles and manufacturing details?

    Regards,
    Giorgos

    #2
    I have 3 m34 helmets in my collection:

    1. Italian GAF in grigioverde paint - post 1941 Italian reissued

    2. Regular Greek m34 in brownish-green color, same gauge of steel as N°1.
    Typical brown greek leather liner with the stamps (cross, size, etc.).

    3. Greek m34 in dark green, light gauge of steel. The difference in weight and solidity to N°1 and N°2 is quite significant. It also sports a white liner made from sheep skin, not the regular Greek liner in brown leather+cross stamp, etc.

    Maybe n°3 could be one of these Greek produced m34?

    Comment


      #3
      Hi tankredi, thanks for your reply!

      These white liner M34/39s do sometimes surface here and are sold as Gendarmerie helmets. Belonging to the Army back then and having second line duties, it could be a plausible theory -but just a theory for the time being- that weaker helmets were issued to this branch, in the same way that the British issued weaker MkIIs to the Home Guard?

      Was the GAF equipped with M34 helmets pre-1940 or is it possible that they were reissued Greek helmets, captured during the 1940-41 campaigns and after the collapse of the front?

      "Over here" the lack of archival sources is terrible, so everything has to be discovered from the beginning, with whatever material becomes available over time. As far as I know the archive of the industry which seems to have produced the Greek helmets has been saved. Locating it and having a look at it could possibly answer many questions.

      For the time being, what seems strange to me is the fact that the contract with the Greek company was for 250.000 helmets, which were enough for the bulk of the Greek Army. If so, why would they need to import large numbers of Italian made helmets? And if the M34 was supposed to be a rejected design, which Italian company would have kept such a huge stock or keep the machinery in this configuration for at least 2 years, until some other country decides to buy it? It seems irrational in terms of industrial planning.

      Another interesting point is that the records make mention of the offer of a German company to provide machinery to Greece, so that their helmets would be produced locally, saying that this is the way how the Serbs produced their own helmets at the time. It is then mentioned that the Greek military attache in Belgrade gave details about the production cost and the quality of the Serbian helmets and that since the information that the Germans gave on the quality of the steel was vague, this is how the "Metalworks and Enamel Industry of Kea" won the contract.

      The whole concept makes me think that the first publications on the subject were influenced by an opinion underestimating the capabilities of the Greek industry of the time.

      If what the archives state about the 250.000 locally produced helmets is true, then there is a huge number of non-Italian made M34 copies, in the same way that the post-war Greek Army copied the M1 helmets.

      Regards,
      Giorgos

      Comment


        #4
        I never heard of nor see any m34/39 issued in Italy before the outbreak of war with Greece.

        If the shells were produced in Greece instead of Italy, I believe the Greek company bought at least the tools from Italy.
        I don't believe the Italian companies had interest to keep tools in stock for a helmet that was officially refused by the Italian military.

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks again for your further reply, tankredi!

          Originally posted by tankredi View Post
          I never heard of nor see any m34/39 issued in Italy before the outbreak of war with Greece.
          This is a very interesting point!

          It would also be interesting to see if the machinery was bought from Italy. I hope I will be able to communicate with the people who located the company's archive.

          Is there also any info regarding the original suspension system of the rejected Italian prototypes?

          Regards,
          Giorgos

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by stray_dog View Post
            Hi,

            So, my second question is: Are there any photos of pre-war, Italian made M34s, with Italian made liners and chinstraps? Could we possibly compare profiles and manufacturing details?

            Regards,
            Giorgos
            Hi Giorgos
            as you know in 1933 Italian army adopted a new type of helmet, the 1933 helmet.
            It was one of the most innovative helmets of the period and inspired the design of other armies helmets.
            However, the Italian army between 1934 and 1939 continued to study and design other models (without ventilation holes, with 4 ventilation holes in different positions, different liner types, etc.).
            These models proved to be more modest than mod 33, so they were reserved for civilian or auxiliary departments. Sometimes, however, they were also used by the army in the absence of adequate supplies.
            The "Greek model", so-called because it was later used by the Greeks against Italy, was one of these experimental helmets. He too was never adopted by the Italian army because less durable than the M 33, but it was often given to the GAF.
            It had three different types of liner, one like the M33, one with padded pads and one the greek model.

            Here you can see my two M 34/39.
            the first one is the italian model issued to the GAF and the second one is the Greek model.
            They have the same shape, weight and solidity.

            Ciao
            Marco















            Comment


              #7
              Hi Marco!

              Mille grazie for your reply, as well as for your very detailed comparative photos!

              One thing that I notice on your third photo, is that the Greek helmet has got a more lifted visor rim and that it leaves a larger part of the head exposed on the sides, close to the eyes. The position of the front rivets of both helmets are a good reference point for this, I think.

              I also think that this can be observed on the first photo, where the rivets on the Greek one sit higher. If we were to align the rivets of both helmets, so that the liner of the Greek one sits horizontally, as it should on a head, then it would leave a larger area on the back of the neck exposed, than the Italian does.

              Can you confirm this or is it maybe just my eyes playing tricks on me?

              Ciao,
              Giorgos

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by stray_dog View Post
                Hi Marco!

                Mille grazie for your reply, as well as for your very detailed comparative photos!

                One thing that I notice on your third photo, is that the Greek helmet has got a more lifted visor rim and that it leaves a larger part of the head exposed on the sides, close to the eyes. The position of the front rivets of both helmets are a good reference point for this, I think.

                I also think that this can be observed on the first photo, where the rivets on the Greek one sit higher. If we were to align the rivets of both helmets, so that the liner of the Greek one sits horizontally, as it should on a head, then it would leave a larger area on the back of the neck exposed, than the Italian does.

                Can you confirm this or is it maybe just my eyes playing tricks on me?

                Ciao,
                Giorgos
                Ciao
                Giorgos

                I think that the difference we can see between the two helmets has only dued to the different sizes of them.
                Italian is bigger (2 cm wider, 2 cm taller and 2 cm longer).
                Moreover in the photos the two helmets were not perfectly aligned.
                I try to take two other pics in different positions.



                Comment


                  #9
                  Thank you for your additional photos and your time, Marco!

                  Indeed, it looks like there are no differences in their shape.

                  I 'll keep looking and I hope I 'll be able to find some definite answer about the production of the Greek helmets.

                  Thanks again!

                  Giorgos

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Don't want to spoil the fun but IMHO the GAF m39 is repainted, liner ring reinstalled with new rivets +heads repainted and chinstrap fixed with new rivets (flat hats - typical sign for use of pliers).
                    Last edited by tankredi; 06-09-2017, 12:23 PM.

                    Comment

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