Italian Ribbon Bar Identification

[MajorBonacelli]

Hello gents,

Found a wonderful Pasubio Division Captain's Grouping I am about to purchase. However, I am curious on the ribbon bar and which medals they correlate to. Any help connecting the story of this soldier to the tunic is greatly appreciated!

[tiziano buttier]

The first is LUNGO COMANDO REGIO ESERCITO, the second Volontario di guerra 1915-18, n. 3 ? (campagna d'Albania; 4 UNITA' D'ITALIA, 5 Anzianità di servizio Regio Esercito, 6 Croce al merito di guerra, 7 Guerra 15-18.

[enorepap]

hallo Major

Not a Captain but a M40 WO 3rd grade (Maresciallo maggiore). See the inverted V cuffs (and not plain as the officers) and the absence of the red piping on the trousers' sides.

With regards to the ribbon bar, please see:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medagl...eschi_italiani

So, we have here:
- Army long command medal (10 years)
- WW1 volunteer medal
- Libyan campaign commemorative medal
- Italian union commemorative medal
- Army long service cross (16 years)
- War merit cross
- WW1 commemorative medal

As you can see, the order of precedence of the ribbons is quite confused, but not a major trouble: the same for the enlisted and sergeants' smooth five-pointed stars instead of the knurled pattern.

Rather, I do not like the ribbon's black background and you have also to carefully check the inside seam of the collar badges to verify that they have not been mounted recently in place of something else.

Best regards

[MajorBonacelli]

hallo Major

Not a Captain but a M40 WO 3rd grade (Maresciallo maggiore). See the inverted V cuffs (and not plain as the officers) and the absence of the red piping on the trousers' sides.

With regards to the ribbon bar, please see:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medagl...eschi_italiani

So, we have here:
- Army long command medal (10 years)
- WW1 volunteer medal
- Libyan campaign commemorative medal
- Italian union commemorative medal
- Army long service cross (16 years)
- War merit cross
- WW1 commemorative medal

As you can see, the order of precedence of the ribbons is quite confused, but not a major trouble: the same for the enlisted and sergeants' smooth five-pointed stars instead of the knurled pattern.

Rather, I do not like the ribbon's black background and you have also to carefully check the inside seam of the collar badges to verify that they have not been mounted recently in place of something else.

Best regards

Many thanks for the info!

So out of curiosity, how many stars would his Bustina have sewn onto it if that is the case?

An interesting lot of awards for sure!

You mentioned two things above that didn't look right with this tunic. In regards to the the ribbon bar, do you think that could of been added onto the uniform postwar, as you stated the black background didn't look right?

I myself was a bit curious on the collar tabs, as they seem quite faded compared with the vibrant colors on a few of the ribbons on the bar...

So sorry for all the questions! Just making sure my money is going to be well spent!

[enorepap]

No stars but stripes. The real problem with the M40 uniforms is, in my opinion, the fact that when the war broke out there was a huge need for uniforms and consequently many variations not covered by the regulations. This makes all things possible but then it is not difficult to complete such a simple uniform (compared to the previous M34) simply by integrating it with collar badges and ribbons. Just to give you an example, the insignia of your jacket does not have the small size, abstractly provided for the war uniform. However, I have seen and owned many M40 uniforms with larger collar patches; badges of rank with gallons of metallic yarn in place of yellow cotton or rayon; trousers with colored side stripes, typical of the uniforms the Army wore before the war. The only option is to check the seams from the inside to see if there are traces of previous removed insignia or ribbons and also to assess the wire's old age.

[enorepap]

Just for your knowledge, the Regulation on 1940 Army war uniforms:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/unire40.htm

The regulations for the National Security Volunteer Militia:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/unimilizia.htm

Royal Corps of Colonial Troops:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/uniretc.htm

Royal Carabineers:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/ccrr.htm

Firefighters:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/univvfc.htm

Royal Finance Guards:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/gdfc.htm

some Italian military uniforms' images with the respective and accurate description:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/coll_unif.htm

As you can see the topic is very complex

[MajorBonacelli]

Just for your knowledge, the Regulation on 1940 Army war uniforms:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/unire40.htm

The regulations for the National Security Volunteer Militia:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/unimilizia.htm

Royal Corps of Colonial Troops:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/uniretc.htm

Royal Carabineers:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/ccrr.htm

Firefighters:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/univvfc.htm

Royal Finance Guards:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/gdfc.htm

some Italian military uniforms' images with the respective and accurate description:

http://www.regioesercito.it/uniformi/coll_unif.htm

As you can see the topic is very complex

Wow, I knew it was complex, but didn't know it was that complex. Mamma mia haha!

I will probably ask for more photos of under the collar, under the shoulder boards, and better photos of inside the jacket from the dealer. If you don't mind, after I receive the photos can I send them to you for your input? You definitely are much more knowledgeable on the topic than I!

[enorepap]

I will be at your disposal, obviously whenever possible.

What is the price the seller asks you for it?

[MajorBonacelli]

I will be at your disposal, obviously whenever possible.

What is the price the seller asks you for it?

Thanks you very much my friend!

The seller is asking 659 USD for the lot (which in the current exchange rate is 590€). However, it's been on his website ever since I can remember when I found the Collector's Guild a year or so ago, so I hope to get the price down a bit.

[enorepap]

Even assuming that all its component parts are original and that a jacket & trousers of a noncommissioned officer require normally on the Italian market a higher price than those of an officer, it seems to me that the price is at least three times more than I'd pay.

[MajorBonacelli]

Even assuming that all its component parts are original and that a jacket & trousers of a noncommissioned officer require normally on the Italian market a higher price than those of an officer, it seems to me that the price is at least three times more than I'd pay.

I am assuming then that the seller is thinking an ARMIR-connected piece is worth much more than a regular tunic grouping then, unfortunately. I will still ask for pics of the tunic and see if he can come down on the price, which probably won't be near to the actual value as you stated.

In that case, know of any good militaria sites with decent-priced M40 groupings? Not many here in the states...

[Ironcrown]

Buy the item, not the story!
It's very easy to remount an italian uniform. Only the collar tabs make the difference, and are not hard to obtain. Unless the uniform has a certain provenance (e.g., named to a reasearchable decorated soldier), like enorepap I would never pay such an amount for an italian uniform. That's a creazy price!

[MajorBonacelli]

Buy the item, not the story!
It's very easy to remount an italian uniform. Only the collar tabs make the difference, and are not hard to obtain. Unless the uniform has a certain provenance (e.g., named to a reasearchable decorated soldier), like enorepap I would never pay such an amount for an italian uniform. That's a creazy price!

Well from what you two stated, no wonder it hasn't sold!

[enorepap]

I am assuming then that the seller is thinking an ARMIR-connected piece is worth much more than a regular tunic grouping then, unfortunately. I will still ask for pics of the tunic and see if he can come down on the price, which probably won't be near to the actual value as you stated.

In that case, know of any good militaria sites with decent-priced M40 groupings? Not many here in the states...

Not many also here in Italy, apart from those who ask for stratospheric prices, ie practically all ... I am not able to give you a direction because since many years ago I have not even bought a pin from specialized vendors. Try to see periodically the collecting -militaria - uniforms section on eBay Italy, and if you see something that interests you, I will be happy, to the best of my knowledge, to give you some advice, in my personal (and obviously not infallible) knowledge, experience and judgment.