Italian Trop tunic

[tankredi]

afrikasandmann,

could you post a close up on the ribbon bar:
1. from the outside of the jacket
2. from the inside of the jacket.

[ITALIANWARFRONT]

I got this jacket in Arizona at the Tempe show with other Italian all original WWII items.
If there is any doubt I will be more than happy to take it back

Giorgio

[Paolo Marzetti]

The Naval tan jumper is another thing. They exist two or more threads about that on this forum.While the tan sahariana has another source.
However let's wait for other opinions...PaoloM

[afrikasandman]

I just want to be certain guys, Giorgio is a great guy to deal with as we all know. His words speak volume for sure. I just wanna make sure its a legit period example as I know very little about this area of collecting but am certainly looking forward to getting into it. I really dig the Italian stuff and feel you can buy it for reasonable prices. Look forward to others opinions! Matt

[ITALIANWARFRONT]

I just want to be certain guys, Giorgio is a great guy to deal with as we all know. His words speak volume for sure. I just wanna make sure its a legit period example as I know very little about this area of collecting but am certainly looking forward to getting into it. I really dig the Italian stuff and feel you can buy it for reasonable prices. Look forward to others opinions! Matt

Hi Matt, I have no doubt the jacket is WWII, I had few of the one so called 1960 used by the Italians in Africa and the color is lighter the material is lighter weight and thinner and the jackets always have a white rectangular stamp on the inside.
But anyone has his opinion I guess.

Giorgio

[afrikasandman]

Giorgio,

any thoughts on why the guy would sew on his ribbon bar and not rank? That is the one thing that makes me sit here and ponder. Perhaps just never got around to adding the rank but the bar does have some nice wear to it. Will get pics up of the ribbon bar today for everyone to see. Matt

[Jeff Leser]

It appears I am in the minority in regards to this sahariano. I feel it is postwar and not correct at all.

The three indicators that stand out are the two points of the shoulder cape in the back, the fixed shoulder straps, and the two buttons on the cuffs. I looked in Viotti’s ‘Uniformi e distinitivi delle’Esercito Italiano nella seconda guerra mondiale’ to refresh my memory. The sahariana is discussed in Chapter XXI with diagrams of the various styles. Marzetti’s ‘Uniformi e distinitivi Italiani 1933-1945’ doesn’t provide much on the sahariana in his Tropical Uniform chapter (pages 141-145

Sahariane are officer’s jackets. They have removable shoulder boards, as officers wore the black shoulder boards as part of the colonial uniform. The pre1940 sahariana has three points on the shoulder cape in the back. The 1940 version has one point. None of the wartime sahariana has two buttons on the cuff. The pre-war has a strap and button cuff, the 1940 has a single button hole cuff.

I can’t speak about these being R.M. jackets that were never issued. I personally don’t put much stock into that story.

I believe this is a post war carabinieri jacket (50s-60s). I have one of these in my closet, bought knowing it was postwar. I also have the pants issued with them.

Just my thoughts, but I am willing to provide more cites.

Pista!

Jeff

[Dennis S]

It appears I am in the minority in regards to this sahariano. I feel it is postwar and not correct at all.

The three indicators that stand out are the two points of the shoulder cape in the back, the fixed shoulder straps, and the two buttons on the cuffs. I looked in Viotti’s ‘Uniformi e distinitivi delle’Esercito Italiano nella seconda guerra mondiale’ to refresh my memory. The sahariana is discussed in Chapter XXI with diagrams of the various styles. Marzetti’s ‘Uniformi e distinitivi Italiani 1933-1945’ doesn’t provide much on the sahariana in his Tropical Uniform chapter (pages 141-145

Sahariane are officer’s jackets. They have removable shoulder boards, as officers wore the black shoulder boards as part of the colonial uniform. The pre1940 sahariana has three points on the shoulder cape in the back. The 1940 version has one point. None of the wartime sahariana has two buttons on the cuff. The pre-war has a strap and button cuff, the 1940 has a single button hole cuff.

I can’t speak about these being R.M. jackets that were never issued. I personally don’t put much stock into that story.

I believe this is a post war carabinieri jacket (50s-60s). I have one of these in my closet, bought knowing it was postwar. I also have the pants issued with them.

Just my thoughts, but I am willing to provide more cites.

Pista!


J

Jeff

Jeff, I think the fixed shoulder strap , double yoke and double button sleeves
are a myth like the Z stitching, 6 and 8 point rivets, were post war M33 as noted in several references as post war.

The German versions of the sahariana also had two point yokes as were some private purchase ones in Italy for instance

Here are some photos of what I believe are fixed straps.

[Dennis S]

another certainly not an Officer

[Dennis S]

Officer to the right, His sleeve closure appears elongated for multiple buttons.

[Dennis S]

I have a gray green wartime wool EM sahariana that has double sleeve buttons , fixed shoulder straps and three yokes in the back.

I also have a tropical collarless sahariana with no fixed shoulder straps , double yoke and double button sleeve closures,

My point is I can't accept any hard fast rules on a lot of Italian uniforms in my experience.

The Italians had a lot of unissued stocks which may not have seen a lot of wartime use at the end of the war which were sometimes issued to RSI forces and postwar. Thats part of the problem identifying wartime and postwar. For instance ,Paratrooper helmets were reissued to the Police and Airforce, some just repainted others retooled. A friend of mine, who has mine passed was a postwar paratrooper and later a collector told me he was issued a 100% wartime para helmet still with the wartime paint.

Respectfully submitted

[Jeff Leser]

Dennis

I agree that there can be exceptions. I also will be the first to state I am not an expert on uniforms of the R.S.I. period. I am, however, reasonably well read and knowledgeable on the R.E. uniforms.

The main problem with this particular style is there is a very large number of examples in excellent condition for sale all over the internet. While I am more than willing to accept private purchase and individual modifications, the sheer number of this style of sahariane available discounts that explanation.

Your photo of the two officers, with the one on the right with fixed shoulder straps is a great photo. Thanks for posting it. I assume all the photos are post Sept 43. Post 43 saw a numerous changes and modifications. I will not attempt to discuss whether this is an authentic R.S.I. style tunic. I simply lack the expertise to engage in such a discussion and I am happy to listen to the opinions of others. I will correct myself and only state that it is not a R.E. issued tunic.

I am well aware of the Z stitching on the helmets, and I agree there are variations. Please note I stated three different items, together on the same uniform, cause doubt. This, combined with the widespread availability of this exact style, causes me trouble. None of the examples you list have all three features together. The collarless paracadutisti style has its own variations. If German made, fine, but then it is not Italian. I am not saying Italian soldiers never wore German clothing.

To put this to rest, afrikasandman asked for our opinions on this tunic. I, like others, provided my thoughts. If this is, in fact, a period tunic, then the tunic I have in my closest is worth some money. Mine doesn’t have the orange size label. I will remain doubtful that this is the case.

No, there are no hard and fast rules on Italian uniforms. But there are some rules, and the question is how many can be broken before you have doubts. I apologize for overstepping my knowledge as I can’t discount the post 43 fashion boom. But I am reasonably confident it is not R.E.

Can it be a WWII tunic? Possibly. I can’t rule it out. Do I think it is likely to be a WWII tunic? No, I don’t think it is likely.

Respectfully (Pista!)

Jeff

[afrikasandman]

Hey guys I am enjoying this dicussion. I find myself being torn here about its originality. Would love to hear more thoughts and opinions on the uniform so I an make an informed decision. Matt

[Jeff Leser]

Matt

There isn’t much more I can add. Collecting requires a high degree of research and a feel for the items you are collecting. If you are happy with the item and have justified it your mind, then enjoy!

What most individuals don’t realize is that the sahariana was officer issue in the pre Sept 43 days. While this meant a higher possibility of modifications (the signore would turn to his tailor to have him make it look better), most modifications were in terms of fitting rather than physical modifications to the uniform. The sahariana would retain its officer’s distinctions (removable shoulder boards for one). The NCOs and soldiers wore the colonial version of the continental uniform (unlined cotton uniforms in brownish colors). It wasn’t until the camiciotto sahariano was authorized for wear in 1942 that the ranks received a similar colonial uniform.

The paracadutisti initially wore the M40 continental uniform. In 41, they adopted the collarless giubba invernale version Mod 41 (in g-v cloth) made in the sahariana style. The colonial version wasn’t authorized until 1942. Paolo’s thread on paracadutisti uniforms has some excellent examples. I did not see a version with a two-yoke cape (to use Dennis’ word for this feature) in the thread.

I will highlight that the sahariana style tunic made in g-v wool is normally called a giubba invernale, not a sahariana. The term sahariana was used for this style made in cotton for colonial use.

The pictures Dennis posted (and I assume the examples he described) appear to be post Sept 43. When the various R.S.I. militaries were established, they looked for styles that were distinctive from the R.E. and would encourage recruiting. The success and popularity of the airborne and special forces made the giubba invernale and the sahariana natural choices. The competing R.S.I. militaries established their variations of the Mod 40 sahariane. It is likely a wide range of variations are possible. But it is also likely that these variations had small production runs. Given the Axis situation in 1944-45, and specifically the problems of production in Italy, it is unlikely a large number of these uniforms were made. The R.S.I. continued to use R.E. uniform stocks until the end of the war. There also wasn’t a need for cotton uniforms in Khaki in the last years of the war. So the availability of large numbers of these tunics doesn’t feel right.

Looking through the collection of R.S.I. photos in the thread in this folder, there is a picture of the sahariana style tunic, made with telo 1929 material, with two yokes and fixed shoulder straps (page 16 of that thread). So a two-yoke style did exist during the war. On page 14 is an NCO with a sahariana with the removable shoulder boards, so likely pre 43 made. Page 9 has what could be a two-yoke giubba invernale (but I am not sure, but possible ). Page 3 has a sahariana with fixed shoulder straps, but I am pretty sure only one cuff button.

The first thing that jumps out from reviewing these pictures is that the giubba invernale Mod 41 is the most popular/common uniform item for the R.S.I. forces. Second, that the two-yoke design did exist post 43, but appears to be rare and not seen on a sahariana. Third is that no photo shows a tunic with all three features under discussion on one uniform. I have yet to see a two cuff button design in a wartime photo. This doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just the photo evidence hasn’t been found.

I am not sure what else to say. Original Italian items tend to be hard to find (other than officer uniforms). Most examples were destroyed or worn-out through use. An enlisted man’s g-v tunic is quite rare compared to comparable German enlisted tunic. The number of these tunics that are available is a worrisome sign.

I don’t know if I offered anything of value in this discussion.

Pista!

Jeff

[Dennis S]

Jeff , Sure you did and the information you just provided proves it. I just learned a lot. My argument or should I just say difference of opinion was only that you set some hard fast rules up that I begged to differ with you. That was my concern ,as I was just trying to make a point on the M33 Z stitching myth. Although the Z was used post war it was also a legitimate wartime method and not an anomaly.

Back to the tunic, shear condition and quantity does not preclude originality .
If this were true all the unused leftover German pith helmets ,and Dachau made insignia would be fake ( most never issued and worn by photographic evidence) We must, as they say in the SS forum judge the piece not the story. I understand your three points of combination ( 2 buttons, two yokes, and fixed shoulder boards. What I was trying to point out was all three were used wartime on Italian tunics. You seem to agree now, but not in combination. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as the RSI having a completely different set of rules and standards ( or non standards) I agree with you. This is obvious from wartime photos. I do feel a lot of the uniforms worn were in fact from Tropical RE stocks. Remember the Italians lost the African campaign, but probably had not planned on that . Large amounts of tropical uniforms may have went into the warehouses just like pith helmets both German and Italian only to be used again during the RSI period. So we have the RSI man wearing left over stocks , custom made pieces and as you advised short runs.

Now none of this conjecture makes our target jacket original, nor does any of it make it postwar. Just my opinion.

I think a study of the cloth materials used and buttons will help solve this puzzle.

I still like the tunic, but heres a question for Brian. Does it appear unissued or worn and when you look under the ribbon bar is the material less faded.