Italian SS helmet M33 (?)

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

Far thousands miles to go off topic, I would to share with you something that maybe should help us to move into this strong and hard field of the decalled italian helmets...
Starting from the point that I obviously expect some scepticism about the decal (I have too about it due I never saw of this size but the helmet was a gift and the decal appear to be correct as material) but....would it be possible that was in Italy any decals manufacturer ?

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[DougB]

This party decal appears to be the same as a well known fake with the circle sitting very high in the shield. It is in such rough condition but I cannot recall seeing a party sheild like this that was authentic. Some of the early variants of party sheilds are found on very early Allgemeine SS black issue helmets and there is the Austrian variant found on 3 brown Austrian TV or VT helmets, 2 appear in Kellys book, I own 1 of them now.

It leads to an interesting discussion as the SS decal that started the topic would have to be locally made. There are 3 variants of the Pocher runes that exist today that 2 for sure are foreign made, the Austrian CA Pocher variant found on the same 3 Austrian earth-brown/gray helmet (you can go to Kelly Hicks website and see it if you do not have the book, scroll down to the bottom of the featured helmet section), and the Nordic (Danish perhaps) found on I believe 3 examples, 1 in Kellys book on a black M40 Schalburg Korps researched helmet that I also am fortunate enough to own, so there are 2 known foriegn produced SS decals for small SS organizations, 1 being very very early (Austrian) and one beign very late (Danish).

The other is the fat runes variety, found on few helmets and not much is known but is suspected as being the first SS decal possibly for SSLAH.

So it is very possible an Italian mfr made a short run of decals in theory as there is historical precedence.

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Stefano I would love to get that helmet and examine it. It is possible that the pictures just do not do the decal any justice at all. I recently saw an M42 that had some negative comments in hand and it is a one looker M42 with a champagne decal, but on the forums it was first not good pictures and a lot of negative comments.
In hand totally different story.

Cheers
Doug
(This is a good thread, learning lots here gentlemen thanks)

[Ric Ferrari]

....It leads to an interesting discussion as the SS decal that started the topic would have to be locally made. There are 3 variants of the Pocher runes that exist today that 2 for sure are foreign made, the Austrian CA Pocher variant found on the same 3 Austrian earth-brown/gray helmet (you can go to Kelly Hicks website and see it if you do not have the book, scroll down to the bottom of the featured helmet section), and the Nordic (Danish perhaps) found on I believe 3 examples, 1 in Kellys book on a black M40 Schalburg Korps researched helmet that I also am fortunate enough to own, so there are 2 known foriegn produced SS decals for small SS organizations, 1 being very very early (Austrian) and one beign very late (Danish).

The other is the fat runes variety, found on few helmets and not much is known but is suspected as being the first SS decal possibly for SSLAH.

So it is very possible an Italian mfr made a short run of decals in theory as there is historical precedence......

Cheers
Doug
(This is a good thread, learning lots here gentlemen thanks)

Doug,

I had/have the same thought and for such reason I started this discussion posting the M33 decalled helmet.
I still believe few are hidden somewhere (may be postwar repainted), but to help them to surface we have to definitively legit it as period made (as for me no doubt about it).

Best

Ric

[Lafitte]

Ric, more of 20 years i collect italian militaria but i never see a one m.33 with an original SS decal (german or ipothetic italian production), from the original pics the bagdes on the helmeth is it clear what this was paint, you can't bring anothers proves of his originallity, so we look in this years lot of speculations about the SS italian decalled Chimera helmets, every time and only for that formation (in the RSI and german troops in Italy was the better?) all collector what speak about this formation not know the history and the zones of operation of this formation, so why we must believe to a helmet like the your?

Why the rough finish not exist under the decal?
Why the decal looks like put on the light green factory color?
Why we can't see the inner part of the helmet?
Why you can't answer at this questions?

You are able to talk only about "experts" but this are for sure in this forum, they bring data.... you what?

[Ric Ferrari]

1) Why the rough finish not exist under the decal?
2) Why the decal looks like put on the light green factory color?
3) Why we can't see the inner part of the helmet?
4) Why you can't answer at this questions?

Hello Lafitte,

just to confirm you are not able to judge by those pics :

1) wrong, the rough finish is under the decal

2) wrong, see above

3) as already said the liner (leather) is more likely replaced and chinstrap not regular WWII but could be period added : so do not waste your time looking at the interior, since the interesting parts are already showed by pics.

4) see above


So let's stop any further blah blah blah by people who have never seen an helmet like that and let's try " to take the conversation to another level than a visual discussion over pictures and what might or might not be real." as rightly said by Doug. By the comments posted it's obvious such different "level" can't be performed by any Italian collector : at least I just realized it.

Btw, this helmet surfaced when you (and flash) were not collecting yet

Best

Ric

[Lafitte]

Another Blackbelt!!
An integralist of the italian SS helmets!!

Hello Lafitte,

just to confirm you are not able to judge by those pics :

Bah.... not is it a my problem, is it a your opinion, other collectors can think the opposite thing!

1) wrong, the rough finish is under the decal

2) wrong, see above

So i must move to the oculist but i see only few points of roug on the schield, and.... is it a strange area around the decal with a less quantity of roug respect at the rest of the helmet, perhaps..... the artist soldier what paint the helmet leave that area clean for the decal?
or.... can be the effect of a strange protective varnish on the decal?
we must believe this too?
In every case if the thick of the decal cover the roug some doubts can be born in me!

3) as already said the liner (leather) is more likely replaced and chinstrap not regular WWII but could be period added : so do not waste your time looking at the interior, since the interesting parts are already showed by pics.

4) see above

Ahhh well... COULD be original or very similar at the helmets use at the time, for me.... but i can wrong, not is it the same thing.
When i look an helmet i look that in the totallity because i like the "bucks" in the parks not in my collection.

So let's stop any further blah blah blah by people who have never seen an helmet like that and let's try " to take the conversation to another level than a visual discussion over pictures and what might or might not be real." as rightly said by Doug. By the comments posted it's obvious such different "level" can't be performed by any Italian collector : at least I just realized it.

Btw, this helmet surfaced when you (and flash) were not collecting yet

Best

Ric

I must do my apologies to that moderator,
I talk only bla bla bla, but please read all my posts in the 3ds, Flash and i are in a wrong level for talk about this "beatiful" helmets.
Of couse we never see an helmet like that, the only one you have (unlucky)..
Think.... you are the only in the world, .. the best.. must be proud.
So you can say to have a good decalled SS italian helmet with a perhaps added liner and chinstrap, great.

What you have in the hands?
I can say to return this helmet buy lot of dozins of years ago ( and only for this must be original?) at the seller (where was, in Ferrara? Rimini? Genova?)

[Lafitte]

So because the our level is it to much deep:

Btw, the well known book "Storia della Legione SS Italiana" published by Ritter does mention few decalled helmets by an Officer's request (named Comelli if I remember well) : what's your opinion about ?

Best

Ric

Always must go to the font of affermation so directly from Corbatti Nava , Sentire , pensare, Volere, pag. 346:

" Sono note due occasioni in cui vennero distribuiti elmetti con fregi APPOSITAMENTE DIPINTI: il primo caso riguarda il battaglione agli ordini dello Stubaf Comelli il secondo (a)i volontari italiani distaccati presso il comando delle Waffen SS in Italia."

Abstract:
" Only in two times was a distribution of helmets with SPECIAL PAINT badges, the first for the batalion under the comand of Stubaf Comelli, the second for the italians volunteers at the Waffen SS HQ in Italy"

So now where is this mentioned decals?
For sure the commander degli Oddi not have one like the your!

[flashider]

Please stop with controversial words...Here we are to learn!!Always to learn!!

Guys,
A friend of mine has an helmet with this strange decal on the front...This person told me that was found in the Sarzana's flea market 20 years ago.
From these photos the decal appears old.
Do you have period photos or informations about this insigna...To know if original, plausible on Italian SS helmet or completely invented and fake?

[flashider]

The decal...
It appears one of that decals applied by the bikers on the vespas...40 years ago.