Italian SS helmet M33 (?)

[Ric Ferrari]

Ric,

All experiences are based on what you want to believe...Are you conscious on "how many" a decal cost to a faker?
http://www.decalpaper.com......

If your assertion would be true, it's better all the German helmet collectors quiet collecting
Joke apart, the point is that you have never seen one like that and you were never able to check one like that in hands, so any comment is understandable but remains what it is : a comment.
Going back to the subject : any comment on the camo paint by Geman helmets collectors?

Ric

[flashider]

Ric,
Yes, it's my opinion!

Please, watch the photo....It's original...I found this animal in a lake near my house.

If you don't believe in it...please remember:
"the point is that you have never seen one like that and you were never able to check one like that in hands, so any comment is undestandable but remains what it is : a comment."





I am joking!!!

[Ric Ferrari]

Ric,
Yes, it's my opinion!

Please, watch the photo....It's original...I found this animal in a lake near my house.

If you don't believe in it...please remember:
"the point is that you have never seen one like that and you were never able to check one like that in hands, so any comment is undestandable but remains what it is : a comment."





I am joking!!!

ahahah......funny that, but now let's go back to the topic

Ric

[Ric Ferrari]

Hello Dennis,

I probably own photos of the same German helmet (M 1942) Paolo is referring to and I wil post them later (those photos were available on the net around 10 years ago)

Just a little detail : that decal is not the same as mine , at first sight very similat but I repeat not the same.......

Best

Ric

...I can publish only this, coming from a known published auction:
(check the runes...identical angles!)

I've other three of them coming from three different helmets.

Here's the helmet mentioned by Paolo and me, such pics come by the net.

Ric

[DougB]

With nuclear microscopic instruments...I believe...

20x loupe is totally different than 400x digital which is why I ask. That undresses the decal completely. Examining many fake SS decals, and many many real ones of all varieties (except an Italian) at that level of detail there are fingerprints on real SS decals I have not seen on fake SS decals and certain charachteristics on fakes that are not seen on real ones.

Also the metallic content is faked, you cannot judge an SS decal because it has metallic content or not, with reference to the "crushed glass" fake Pocher, and some new (and older) very good fake SS decals, the pulver is reproduced.

Some work is also being done involving archaeometry on decals as well, which exposes the elemental composition of the decals pulver itself. And again, hi detailed magnification also can expose a fake pulver as well, however most SS decal experts can pick the fakes out visually, but it is a tool that is interesting to see the substructure layer below the pulver and the details one sees at this level of magnification.

[Ric Ferrari]

20x loupe is totally different than 400x digital which is why I ask. That undresses the decal completely. Examining many fake SS decals, and many many real ones of all varieties (except an Italian) at that level of detail there are fingerprints on real SS decals I have not seen on fake SS decals and certain charachteristics on fakes that are not seen on real ones.

Also the metallic content is faked, you cannot judge an SS decal because it has metallic content or not, with reference to the "crushed glass" fake Pocher, and some new (and older) very good fake SS decals, the pulver is reproduced.

Some work is also being done involving archaeometry on decals as well, which exposes the elemental composition of the decals pulver itself. And again, hi detailed magnification also can expose a fake pulver as well, however most SS decal experts can pick the fakes out visually, but it is a tool that is interesting to see the substructure layer below the pulver and the details one sees at this level of magnification.

Hello,

an interesting point, but how does such comparison work if you have not a certified original one to compare with ?

Ric

[DougB]

Hello,

an interesting point, but how such comparison does work if you have not a certified original one to compare with ?

Ric

Enough fakes have been looked at a high level of magnification to see certain patterns that do not appear in real ones. It would be interesting to see if the decal has similar patterns or has patterns of known period SS decals including some rare foreign made Pocher variants which have been published by Kelly Hicks. It might not be definitive as it appears there is disagreement upon original and reproduction Italian manufactured SS decals, but it takes the conversation to another level than a visual discussion over pictures and what might or might not be real.

[Ric Ferrari]

Enough fakes have been looked at a high level of magnification to see certain patterns that do not appear in real ones. It would be interesting to see if the decal has similar patterns or has patterns of known period SS decals including some rare foreign made Pocher variants which have been published by Kelly Hicks. It might not be definitive as it appears there is disagreement upon original and reproduction Italian manufactured SS decals, but it takes the conversation to another level than a visual discussion over pictures and what might or might not be real.

Absolutely agree : a good suggestion

[DougB]

...But for sure the paintjob and the rust of this helmet appears artificially made...

I also have to agree with flashider, the paint and aging doesn't sit very well based solely upon these pictures. If you look you can see very small two pronged scratches that are consistent in shape and width apart that are present all over on the paint and even on the decal, and the rusty spotted bleeding up through the decal is something that I am not comfortable with.

[DougB]

Here is an example of what I speak about, a known original ET 62 SS helmet with an ET decal, this is the right rune of a pre-1940 ET SS decal, which has nice consistent age toning. Without giving away the farm, this decal has visual elements of what I would be looking for on a real SS decal and fakes do not.

This is magnified to 400x and what is seen here cannot be seen with a 20 or 40x loupe or magnification.

[Ric Ferrari]

Does Kelly Hicks certify by such way German decals ?

Ric

[DougB]

See circled areas, not nec. the kiss of death but the angles of the marks, the width, etc just looks artificial to my eyes and not natural. Perhaps in hand it appears to be not so much.

[Ric Ferrari]

See circled areas, not nec. the kiss of death but the angles of the marks, the width, etc just looks artificial to my eyes and not natural. Perhaps in hand it appears to be not so much.

Please do not judge by such pic, it does not do justice to the beautiful patina that helm shows.

Ric

[DougB]

Does Kelly Hicks certify by such way German decals ?

Ric

Ric, I cannot speak for Kelly but we correspond regularly on this and other matters concerning SS decals, and while this is still in it's infancy I have done enough work with them on many fakes (not nearly enough yet however) and on many SS helmets including many published in Kelly;s books that I either own or have been on loan to me to determine there are certain patterns to real and fakes at this level of detail. There are over 60 SS helmets in my collection and I have examined many many more but much more work needs to be done. (not enough time in the day! )

There is no question ultra high level magnification exposes fakes, and I have done work on a very good double runic EF fake that by the pictures was very very good, the owner sent it to me and under magnification it was obvious it was a fake made to decieve as it compared 100% to the known and very good EF fake SS decal that visually is very hard to tell except for very experienced SS collectors. 400x magnification exposed and verified it.

As well there is archaeometric work being done that will add another level of science to the mix, to help collectors determine real from fake. Preliminary results have been posted here on WAF and GHW by member Maui / DMC that are very exciting.

[DougB]

Please do not judge by such pic, it does not do justice to the beautiful patina that helm shows.

Ric

HI Ric, just going with what is shown, decal shows similar marks as do the others but not to the same degree.

That being said Rick you are correct pics do not always tell the entire story.