Italian SS helmet M33 (?)

[Paolo]

This one is it a famous pics of SS italiane, from this pic all think what that shields may be decals in reality that shields are all painted on the helmets, in fact in some helmets the runes are differentes.
At today in Italy not exist a original m.33 with a SS decal.
No are know from italians producers, for german producers only possibily can be a Pocher.

The big runes in black paint is it the other type know of this interesting helmets.

Lafitte,
The picture of an original Italian SS decalled helmet can be seen at page 243 of David Littlejohn's "Foreign Legons of the Third Reich" edited by Bender in 1981. It seems to me that the helmets in the picture have decals and not painted shields but can be wrong. I would not be so sure about no original Italian SS helmets being left in Italy or somewhere else.
The black runes are definitively painted in my opinion.
Paolo

[Ric Ferrari]

....from this pic all think what that shields may be decals in reality that shields are all painted on the helmets, in fact in some helmets the runes are differentes
At today in Italy not exist a original m.33 with a SS decal.
No are know from italians producers, for german producers only possibily can be a Pocher.

Hello,

better to say that you are referring to your own experience and what you offer is simply your opinion : are you able to prove those are not decals ? .

Best

Ric

[Lafitte]

Ok guys,
thank you.
I thought that it can be like the helmet showed in this well know picture.
With a hand-painted SS shield.
But... I thought wrong!
Thank you again.


Regards
Brus

Hallo Brus, this pic takes in Mariano Comense i think in the november of 1944, General Wolff decored some Italian SS menbers with EK II an Bandenabzeichen.

The man decorated in the picture is Hstuf. Pietro Martinelli - commander of anti-tank group "Panzerjaeger-abteilung".

Units of the group:
1 - 7,5 cm pak 40
2 - 47/32
3 - 20 mm flak

Lafitte,
The picture of an original Italian SS decalled helmet can be seen at page 243 of David Littlejohn's "Foreign Legons of the Third Reich" edited by Bender in 1981. It seems to me that the helmets in the picture have decals and not painted shields but can be wrong. I would not be so sure about no original Italian SS helmets being left in Italy or somewhere else.
The black runes are definitively painted in my opinion.
Paolo

Hallo Paolo, i don't remenber this i loose all my database some months ago with the crash of old HD.
Is it that of Prof. Pio Filippani Ronconi with a german Helmet?
Can you post it?

Hello,

better to say that you are referring to your own experience and what you offer is simply your opinion : are you able to prove those are not decals ? .

Best

Ric

Every time when we talk about SS italian the same story: "You can prove this, you can prove the other thing?"
You can prove what that schield was for sure a decal?

So in a study on this pic doing to Flashider and me is it clear what the runes are different from schield to schield. For you is it possible that differences for a schield printed with typographic machines?

That day in Mariano Comense no man have got an helmet with decals, this for sure, and probably, only that unit have got that badges on the helmets.
I hope what one of this, or that of Martinelli, was survive at the war but i never see one good in overe 20 years of collection, unlucky was too much few for a find at our times.

[Ric Ferrari]

Every time when we talk about SS italian the same story: "You can prove this, you can prove the other thing?"
You can prove what that schield was for sure a decal?

So in a study on this pic doing to Flashider and me is it clear what the runes are different from schield to schield. For you is it possible that differences for a schield printed with typographic machines?

That day in Mariano Comense no man have got an helmet with decals, this for sure, and probably, only that unit have got that badges on the helmets.
I hope what one of this, or that of Martinelli, was survive at the war but i never see one good in overe 20 years of collection, unlucky was too much few for a find at our times. [/COLOR]

Hello,

as we both know to sell opinions as proofs is an habit widely spread and expecially among Italian collectors : study in depth of 1 photo does not allow anyone to claim it as a proof, were you present at Mariano Comense that day ?
The fact you have never seen one of them does not mean someone else did, isn't it ?
Btw, the well known book "Storia della Legione SS Italiana" published by Ritter does mention few decalled helmets by an Officer's request (named Comelli if I remember well) : what's your opinion about ?

Best

Ric

[CIANO]

Hi,

With all respect that I have for all opinions specially coming from Laffite,
I must say that I totally agree with Ric Ferrari.
None of us can have the definitive answer, regarding this issue.
The Italian SS Helmets, will remain a mystery in many aspects, specially in the decals variations....
In my opinion at the time everything was possible....even using in the helmets the original German SS Decals....specially in Officer ranks....

regards

Luis

[Massimo F.]

I agree with Ciano, it was a put-together unit with mixed equipment and basically they used whatever they found useful and serviceable.

[Lafitte]

For Mariano Comense wasen't decals on that m.33 helmets and in that place was in the november of 1944.
If you look the pic ,the runes of the 3th man is it near the border of the schield while in the 2nd man the runes are in the down and in the centre of the schield, no way for a printed decal.

So when i look this pic i look a formed unit for the moment, mans with large helmets and scarce equipment, look the single (cutted) ammo box for the m.91 rifle.
Old soldiers have got collarless uniforms, the news (probably) m. 40 tunics.
This for Mariano.

About possible helmets with decals this can be exist but a today no one good was find.
All german style decals on m.33 have very doubts, of couse the only possible to find "after market" was the Pocher model, others was available on the german factories.
At this point we must think to exist a lot of italians m.33 helmets decalled into a german factory like in example an ET or others, but helmets with this particolarities not exist.

If we think about an italian production that can be exist but in this case too no one good helmet is it know.

I think this: if exist rarest decals for ANR on para helmets too and this was a very small units must exist a example of a genuine SS italian decal on a m.33.
Unlucky this one isn't know, in every case the italian SS was some thousend soldiers.

In this cases not are included the possibles germann SS helmets used from the italian SS soldiers (Prof. Pio Filippani Ronconi but in a studio photo).

I think what lot of wrong notices on this Chimeres was supply to old books where was show some of this decalled m.33 helmets.

[Ric Ferrari]

Hello,

just to make clearer my position : my convinction is not based on photos.....

Best

Ric

[Paolo]

Hallo Paolo, i don't remenber this i loose all my database some months ago with the crash of old HD.
Is it that of Prof. Pio Filippani Ronconi with a german Helmet?
Can you post it?


Hi Lafitte,
No, in that picture Pio Filippani Ronconi is wearing a German helmet with a standard SS decal. I refer to a M33 Italian helmet with Italian pattern runes.
Best
Paolo

[Paolo]

Hi Ric,
do you mean that you know about original Italian SS helmets? If so all of us would be delighted to see some pictures.
Paolo

[luftwaffenkopf]

so judging from the photos, supplied equipment of the Italian SS unit and the discussion here can one assume that Italian SS rune presentations on M33 helmets could be either hand painted or hand applied decals? pretty much anything goes...right?

[Lafitte]

Hallo Paolo, i don't remenber this i loose all my database some months ago with the crash of old HD.
Is it that of Prof. Pio Filippani Ronconi with a german Helmet?
Can you post it?


Hi Lafitte,
No, in that picture Pio Filippani Ronconi is wearing a German helmet with a standard SS decal. I refer to a M33 Italian helmet with Italian pattern runes.
Best
Paolo

Hallo Paolo, i have a wacuum in my head, i don't remember this but for sure someone have post it on WA or on italian BMF. Please can you post it with the citation of the font?

so judging from the photos, supplied equipment of the Italian SS unit and the discussion here can one assume that Italian SS rune presentations on M33 helmets could be either hand painted or hand applied decals? pretty much anything goes...right?

Hallo Luft, the problem not is it the position of the schield on the helmet but the position of the runes on the schields!! That are all in differents positions!!!

I hope to find an original italian SS helmet but i think was a difficolt adventure.
Lot of year ago in an italian market was an helmet with that great black runes painted, the seller say what that was of Hstuf. Pietro Martinelli because this come back from his family.
This may be real, i don't know, i can't see the helmet but for sure this is in an italian collection.
All may be but with the air in Italy in the weeks and in the months before the end of the war a helmet like that in house was like a capital punishment!

[Paolo]

[quote=Lafitte;3177692]Hallo Paolo, i have a wacuum in my head, i don't remember this but for sure someone have post it on WA or on italian BMF. Please can you post it with the citation of the font?


Unfortunately I don't have a scanner. The citation of the font is in one of the previous posts.
Best

[Paolo Marzetti]

Sorry for my delay in entering this interesting thread, but have been out of
Italy without my database. Well ,about the helmet object of this thread, frankly
I'm not inspired by that for the following reasons:
1- the drawing of the runes
2- the width of the shield
I can take note of the history reported by the seller, but I don't like that helmet. For what I know I can confirm that the group shown in Mariano Comense (late 1944) had hand made shields and runes, almost surely on
both the sides of the helmets, but it is strange to see that on that parade
only one group bore these shields on their helmets. Other groups, as
confirmed by one former member of the 'SS Italiana' that attended
to that parade, and that I knew in the 80's,had nothing on the helmets.
It is confirmed also by several photos of the time, regarding that event in
Mariano Comense, published in the notable book 'Sentire, Pensare, Volere' by
S. Corbatti & Marco Nava, Ritter Ed. 2001.
It is not only my opinion however that these badges can exist either stencilled
(frankly a very poor drawing), or decalled, almost surely adopting the
various German made transfers available on request.
Very difficult field this one!Everyone can have his own opinions, based on
his experience,but believe me without any certainty.My two cents...PaoloM

[Ric Ferrari]

Hello Paolo,

and thanks for jumping in : I'm sure the thread development will capture your interest.

Best

Ric