Tunic value

[NickG]

This Italian NCO tunic is offered @ $285.
Is that a reasonable price?
It appears to be an early one!

[NickG]

and from the same source also this helmet. He wants $180.
Is it a good one (the stencil) ? I know these are being faked now...
I think its M.V.S.N." (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale) right?

[Raffaello Carola]

Hello Nick,

the Italian NCO tunic at $ 285.00 is an reasonable price, I think
is possible to find others chance at cheap price because this tunic
are really common, the M33 insignia not is MVSN, but the real rare
GNR (Guardia Nazionale Repubblicana) RSI period imho the stencil insignia
is fake, sorry.
regards
Raffaello

[NickG]

Thanks Rafaello. I will pass on these. I did notice that the stencil looks too fresh, no damage...covers up the rust... not a good sign. I agree!

[Jeff Leser]

Nick

I guess I am missing something here. I am not sure what this tunic is meant to represent, but it is not like any 1933-1945 tunic I have seen. My first thought is this is a postwar tunic with wartime badges sewn on. The buttons, the cut of the pockets, lack of a belt, the shoulder straps, etc, are just wrong. Enlisted coats normally have three large buttons, officers have four. The fourth (bottom) button is normally different (not fancy) as the Sam Browne belt covered it.

Italian warrant officers (marchalli - the spelling is wrong, but I am traveling and lack my books) usually wore officer style uniforms. Occasionally a sergente maggorie might have an officer style uniform. This is a sergente and wouldn't a have a four button tunic.

The mostrine is of the Alpi regiment. Two of the ribbons I don't recognize.

If this is a WWII era tunic, then I need to throw away my books. I am more than happy to read other opinions (and the associated cites) that show this to be a correct tunic. I would stay away until someone provides a cite from an authoritive source that this is a correct WWII style.

Pista!

Jeff

[NickG]

Nick

I guess I am missing something here. I am not sure what this tunic is meant to represent, but it is not like any 1933-1945 tunic I have seen. My first thought is this is a postwar tunic with wartime badges sewn on. The buttons, the cut of the pockets, lack of a belt, the shoulder straps, etc, are just wrong. Enlisted coats normally have three large buttons, officers have four. The fourth (bottom) button is normally different (not fancy) as the Sam Browne belt covered it.

Italian warrant officers (marchalli - the spelling is wrong, but I am traveling and lack my books) usually wore officer style uniforms. Occasionally a sergente maggorie might have an officer style uniform. This is a sergente and wouldn't a have a four button tunic.

The mostrine is of the Alpi regiment. Two of the ribbons I don't recognize.

If this is a WWII era tunic, then I need to throw away my books. I am more than happy to read other opinions (and the associated cites) that show this to be a correct tunic. I would stay away until someone provides a cite from an authoritive source that this is a correct WWII style.

Pista!

Jeff

================
Thanks for the warning Jeff! I will definately pass based on your concerns!!! Nick

[Jeff Leser]

tunic

Nick

Italian enlisted uniforms are quite rare. Poor quality, combined with wide-spread distruction, limits what is available. When the Italian Army self-demobilized in 1943, most soldiers (or their families) burned or otherwise destroyed their uniforms to remove evidence that they had been in the miltary. After the war, lack of pride/interested in the Fascist military destroy much of the enlisted items that survived. Today, officer uniforms are quite common for various reasons, while enlisted uniforms remain elusive.

I foolishly passed on a uniform about 7 seven ago when I first became interested in the Italian army. That uniform was for sale for $550 (giacca and pantaloni). I wish I had bought it but I didn't know better. When I see an original enlisted uniform, the price is more than the $285 listed here.

Pista!

Jeff

[NickG]

Nick

I guess I am missing something here. I am not sure what this tunic is meant to represent, but it is not like any 1933-1945 tunic I have seen. My first thought is this is a postwar tunic with wartime badges sewn on. The buttons, the cut of the pockets, lack of a belt, the shoulder straps, etc, are just wrong. Enlisted coats normally have three large buttons, officers have four. The fourth (bottom) button is normally different (not fancy) as the Sam Browne belt covered it.

Italian warrant officers (marchalli - the spelling is wrong, but I am traveling and lack my books) usually wore officer style uniforms. Occasionally a sergente maggorie might have an officer style uniform. This is a sergente and wouldn't a have a four button tunic.

The mostrine is of the Alpi regiment. Two of the ribbons I don't recognize.

Jeff


If this is a WWII era tunic, then I need to throw away my books. I am more than happy to read other opinions (and the associated cites) that show this to be a correct tunic. I would stay away until someone provides a cite from an authoritive source that this is a correct WWII style.

Pista!

Jeff

Studying this piece more, to me it looks like your run of the mill 1934 pattern officer's uniform (4 button front) but badged with NCO insignia. If its a senior NCO I guess that is still a possibility with this pattern tunic.
Your post however makes it sound like this piece is no where near a ww2 pattern but it sure looks like a twin to me. Compare with this one below...
Same cuffs, same cut, same collar and lapel shape, same eppaulets but perhaps not sew-in style, same button count... (image from the web...)

[NickG]

another example

Here's another example (1934 pattern officer's tunic) from my personal collection;

[Jeff Leser]

Nick

I am not nearly well versed in officer uniforms as I am in enlisted: officer items have never been the focus of my interest. That is why I am more than willing to see other member’s research regarding this tunic. I have looked at many pictures of officer items for sale.

The two things bothered me when I first looked at this tunic: the buttons and the pocket flaps. Note the difference between the shoulder strap buttons and the other buttons. The shoulder strap buttons look like wartime combat buttons; compare them to your pictures from the virtual gallery (which I have used for quite a few years). Officer buttons on this type of tunic normally have insignia on them. Enlisted never had metal buttons. The mix of buttons indicate that the buttons have been replaced. The type of buttons used doesn’t match anything I have seen as enlisted wartime.

When metal buttons are used on an officer’s coat, the fourth (bottom) is different (plastic or wood). This is because the Sam Browne will rub on it. damaging the button. Note in the pictures you posted that combat buttons (plastic most likely) have replaced the normal metal buttons. This is correct, and the bottom button would match the other three. The officer’s tunic underwent two basic modifications. The first was to strip the shiny bits off (buttons, metals parts on shoulder straps, etc.). The second was to make the coat from ‘combat cloth’ (my words, I can’t remember the phrase used). This was basically to make the uniform from a g-v cloth (but officers cut) to better mix with soldiers in the field.

The pockets flaps have rounded corners. Again please remember that I don’t have my books with me, but my eyes were automatically drawn to the pocket flags. If I was researching this tunic, one of the first items I would check is pocket flap design. I certainly realize that officer uniforms varied a great deal (tailoring), but it would be unusual for an enlisted man to modify the uniform.

So how did an EM (OR) have an officer’s coat. I certainly have not heard of them being an issued item. As I stated before, a warrant of sergeant major could buy an officer uniform (it was authorized), but this was mostly in peacetime. Wartime, I don’t see it. The Alpi regiment wasn’t a post 43 units (AFAIK, but I would need to check), so I am not convinced this is a ‘they used anything they could get’ situation. The stellette look too big to be mostrine stellette, possibly overcoat size. The mostrine looks bulky as well, not what I have seen before.

In all it looks home made,-put together. If a true piece, it is very unusual and doesn’t represent anything near the norm. But I am willing to read other comments/thoughts, for nothing is simple when dealing with Italian uniforms. I would not have this piece in my collection.

Pista!

Jeff

[Raffaello Carola]

Nick

Italian enlisted uniforms are quite rare. Poor quality, combined with wide-spread distruction, limits what is available. When the Italian Army self-demobilized in 1943, most soldiers (or their families) burned or otherwise destroyed their uniforms to remove evidence that they had been in the miltary. After the war, lack of pride/interested in the Fascist military destroy much of the enlisted items that survived.

after the 8 September 43' only the fascist MVSN Blackshirt (tunic rare)
are demobilized, the tunic is an "normal" service dress tunic Regio Esercito
(Army) not an combat green wool tunic (rare) The dress tunic in Italy
is very common, we can think that any Officer or NCO had 2/3 dress tunic
private tailor cut.
regards
Raffaello

[NickG]

after the 8 September 43' only the fascist MVSN Blackshirt (tunic rare)
are demobilized, the tunic is an "normal" service dress tunic Regio Esercito
(Army) not an combat green wool tunic (rare) The dress tunic in Italy
is very common, we can think that any Officer or NCO had 2/3 dress tunic
private tailor cut.
regards
Raffaello

So with that said Raffaello, you are giving the tunic that started this thread a "thumbs up", right?

[Raffaello Carola]

Nick, the photos are not clear to give an definitive idea if the insignia
are replaced imho is only an "simply" service dress tunic

[Dennis S]

Here is one of my Italian EM tunics upgraded to a late RSI Sergente

[Raffaello Carola]

Dennis very nice combat tunic this is the thread of two combat
tunics of my collection
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...n+combat+tunic
all the best
Raff