Same Yugoslav Pro German (SS sponsered) militia men testing their German supplied Italian Breda M37 heavy machine guns. Again all men issued with (post Italian 1943 armistice) early (prewar style) single breasted Italian overcoats, all supplied to them by their German benefactors! Circa 1944. (from A.Munoz' Hitler's Green Army)
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Last edited by NickG; 11-27-2008, 01:24 PM. -
Never Say Never
So far I've found proof that this old style prewar single breasted coat with hidden buttons was used not only by the pre-armistice Italian army but also post 1943 by RSI troops and militia men, as well as by pro German Yugoslav militia men. No doubt also by Partisans in Italy and the Balkans.
That covers all of those sides/scenarios.
Now the Italian WAFFEN SS!
I agree that you would expect the Italian SS to be supplied with more modern gear, as they were formed towards the end of 1943, being German sponsored and eventually growing into a Division (albeit scattered) in 1944, so getting later equipment would be expected and no doubt the men that were trained in Poland had access to German coats etc... but the German priority was not so much in gear, but rather in modern armaments...
No doubt that the Italian ss men that were recruited later in Italia were kitted out with all kinds of Italian gear and photographic proof even shows the older pantaloon pants + leg wraps being worn + old fashioned leather bandoleers!!! So much for the theory that modern equipment was used. (MAS,San Marco and RSI paratroopers were far more modern looking!) See "Sentire-Pensare-Volere" for reference images... The Italian Waffen SS was scattered all over Italy, so no doubt locally supplied with whatever was available (in the war torn "Repubblica di Salo")...
So with that said, the hunt was still on to find Italian SS men wearing such an old style (pre war) coat and I believe that I've been succesfull.
NEVER SAY NEVER! (something I've learned in this hobby over the years)
The Italian Waffen officer (or NCO) on the left (with the German gaiters and officer's belt) is wearing a single breasted Italian coat with hidden buttons and hand warmer "slit" breast pockets. Appears to be a match!
The Italian Waffen SS man on his right is an NCO and identified as Unterscharführer Luigi Burbi II/82 (29th SS) and he is wearing a more modern double breasted coat, again of Italian origin but more in line with German designs. Both SS men wear Italian made light colored M43 caps, no doubt with skull insignia, not clear unfortunately and also unclear if the shoulderboard/straps are the Waffen SS pattern or plain green coat epaulets machting the coats?? Certainly no sleeve eagles are visible, but these are with no doubt Waffen SS men. (from "Sentire-Pensare-Volere" )Last edited by NickG; 11-27-2008, 01:25 PM.Comment
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Nick
Great photos. However they are not conclusive that the Waffen SS units worn the mod. 37. All the photos could be showing soldiers wearing the mod. 40. The difference between the mod. 37 and mod. 40 is the change from using the pointed cuff to a straight cuff (and the removal of the snap on the cuff). The coat remained single breasted with the vertical pockets, hidden buttons, etc. Unfortunately the posted pictures are too pixilated to clearly see the cuffs.
The mod. 40 was authorized in Oct 40 (see Viotti) and was a wartime simlpification of the cappotto. In 1942 the cappotto was further modified into a double breasted version. A cappotto da scolta (sentry's overcoat or watchcoat) mod. 41 was introduced in 1941. This coat had a removable hood and cape and was design to be worn over the cappotto. It had hidden buttons that were offset to create a double-breaqtsed effect. The cappotto da scolta was a unit issued item, not an individual issue.
Pista!
JeffLast edited by Jeff Leser; 11-27-2008, 09:20 AM.Comment
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Jeff, thanks for the input and for further clarifying that model 37 and 40 are both single breasted with hidden buttons and therefor hard to distinguish between each other, so not conclusive... BUT these images do prove (to me at least) that in 1944-1945 the Italians (militia MVSN, SS, MAS, Black Brigades all continued using older stocks, all the way thru the RSI period. That's partially what I was after to prove.Originally posted by Jeff Leser View Post
So Waffen SS usage of M37's is not proven with certainty, but I would say not impossible.
What I am certain of is that the "elite" Waffen SS in Italy certainly used old gear on occasion... (1)old pantaloon trousers + leg wraps, (2) old leather badoleers, (3) old non camo (solid tan) shelterhalfs.... So old M37 single breasted overcoats is a possibility and old M40 singlebreasted overcoats a probability.
The Germans really only supported the SS legion with (heavy)weaponry and tactical training...For the majority of their gear the Italian SS was on their own and the hodge podge of kit used is well illustrated in period photographs.
Thanks.
NickLast edited by NickG; 11-27-2008, 01:26 PM.Comment
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Yes, The Italian SS seemed to have been kitted with whatever they could get their hands on. This added to the fact that they were never a cohesive unit as the Legione or Divisione never seemed to be at any one place at the same time adds to the chances that they were not universily supplied by a central depot. I wouldn't be surprised if I saw an Italiane SS Legionere wearing a Jap Helmet. Ok I am stretching it, bad joke. My point is almost most Italian Army Uniforms could have been possibly worn by a Legionere. although that does not make it an "Italiane SS" uniform.
As far as The other RSI soldats or paramilitaries are concerned. The four Divisiones trained in Germany appeared to be better kitted uniformly by the Germans. The GNR also appears to have some uniformity by at least most units and did an attempt at uniformity even changing to proper insignia later as per regulations.
The Black Brigades is another story and they would use whatever and I mean whatever was available. If I owned that Overcoat and wanted to use it in a set up for the RSI period . I would go with Black Brigade as long as a black shirt was used in conjunction with it along with a brimmed hat such as a German M43 or Italian M42Last edited by Dennis S; 11-28-2008, 03:13 AM.Comment
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Good Luck
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maybe his overcoat is on a hangerComment
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Black Brigade in camo and beret with older German Polizei in trenchComment
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Cool! I like the captured British Stengun in post #39
or
go with a simple "M.V.S.N." theme (Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale)
Large overcoat MVSN mostrine won't be easy! (nor would Black Brigade insignia...)Last edited by NickG; 11-30-2008, 01:41 AM.Comment
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Cool picture of Ramcke Kubelwagen in Africa.
Note local colonial Italian soldier with overcoat clearly showing the "V" cuffs!Comment
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Stars of Savoia worn directly on single breasted overcoat...
(no "mostrine" collar tabs)!Comment
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