RSI era Italian Naval badges question

[NickG]

Has anybody seen the Italian RSI era Naval badges that AGM (Advance Guard Militaria) has been offering... ?
These were authorized in 1944 and the story is that a recently discovered cache of unissued old badges (with issue bags) made by Stefano Johnson in Milano surfaced and now is being offered by this dealer...
These are RSI Naval "cruiser", "battleship","motortorpedo boat", "Submarine" ,
"Auxiliary ships", "Anti-Sub" , "Hospital Ship" , "Naval Assault" and "Mas" type badges and come in bronze,silver and gold grades...


https://www.advanceguardmilitaria.com

In the "other nations" part 2 section. Thoughts on these?
This one (SUB, picture below) is NOT one out of the cache and distinctively different... better rope detail...

[NickG]

Well I researched this further and in Fausto Sparacino's book on RSI badges and medals there is a section that covers these RSI era "Distintivi Per La Navigazione in Geurra" (translated = "Badges for War Navigation").

He explains that this series of badges were odered on May 27th 1944 for the RSI Navy, but earlier Italian (Royal) Navy designs were used with of course the removal of the crown... (broken off)
and its puzzling that it further states that these RSI designs (authorized by the RSI Armed Forces ministry) were actually manufactured by S.Johnson between January and July 1947 (strike numbers 7889 thru 7897 = 9 designs as depicted below)...

So post war the author claims....based on his research??? and authorized by the Navy ministry (Direzione Gen.Commiss.Milit. Marittimo Roma) of the post war Italian Republic... WHY??
For RSI Naval veterans maybe ?
Puzzling!!

Anybody knows more?

[Dennis S]

Nick, Here are some links from similar badges up for auction on Manions.
http://www.manions.com/bid/bid.aspx~...6~pic~20081107

http://www.manions.com/bid/bid.aspx~...0~pic~20081107

read his description also. he always has them up on every past auction for quite some time.

[NickG]

Thanks! Manions is using the same reference in their description that I've found... Why on earth would an RSI design be produced early postwar you wonder? For veterans? It just doesn't make sense to me...Unless these are war time after all and Sparacino has his facts wrong...Who knows?
I paid $35 for mine (Battleship grade in Bronze with issue envelope). Still neat and RSI related!
These 3 (Manions offering below) are the Battleship grade Lions heads (Cruiser grade is wolfs heads) is the same style that AGM is also listing, not rope difference in comparison with post #1!
Sometimes the Lion's tongues are enameled in red!

[NickG]

Stefano Johnson (Milano) markings on the back of these...
This firm made many many RSI badges (being based in the North)

[Dennis S]

Nick, just did some quick research in the Book, "la Marina Militare Italiana "which is an extensive book on Italian Uniforms and insignia of the Italian Navy 1861-present. The badges without crown are both depicted in the RSI section and the Italian Republic. It states the the badges were authorized for the Italian RSI navy from the earlier design without the crown. In the Republic (post war) section it shows the badges and states they were issued for "War Service".
My take on it was the RSI would have worn them ,if manufactured or with the earlier design with the crowns removed. The Republic(post war) also had them manufactured and issued for War service (WW2) not neccasarily for RSI veterans, but for Italian Veterans who continued in the New Navy(Republic). I think most RSI Veterans were not allowed back into the service until much later. So it was an Official Republic badge not a Veteran's Comemerative piece

As far as the Johnson issue goes. This could prove out that the Johnson made badges were for the Republic(pot war) only. If Johnson did not make them pre-1945 without the crown. So my assumption would be this. Any RSI made ones would be done by a different manufacture if they existed during that period. Unless S.Johnson Firm is hiding the truth about making this paticular badge for te RSI and pumped them out before the design was accepted. I don't think the Johnson badges are wartime.

[NickG]

Nick, just did some quick research in the Book, "la Marina Militare Italiana "which is an extensive book on Italian Uniforms and insignia of the Italian Navy 1861-present. The badges without crown are both depicted in the RSI section and the Italian Republic. It states the the badges were authorized for the Italian RSI navy from the earlier design without the crown. In the Republic (post war) section it shows the badges and states they were issued for "War Service".
My take on it was the RSI would have worn them ,if manufactured or with the earlier design with the crowns removed. The Republic(post war) also had them manufactured and issued for War service (WW2) not neccasarily for RSI veterans, but for Italian Veterans who continued in the New Navy(Republic). I think most RSI Veterans were not allowed back into the service until much later. So it was an Official Republic badge not a Veteran's Comemerative piece

As far as the Johnson issue goes. This could prove out that the Johnson made badges were for the Republic(pot war) only. If Johnson did not make them pre-1945 without the crown. So my assumption would be this. Any RSI made ones would be done by a different manufacture if they existed during that period. I also think that Johnson is in Rome and Rome fell to the Allies June 4,1944 only seven days after the RSI Decree to adopt the badges. Unless S.Johnson Firm is hiding the truth about making this paticular badge for te RSI and pumped them out before the design was accepted. I don't think the Johnson badges are wartime.

Makes sense Dennis, so multiple makers maybe and a Johnson contract for these was a post war one... Note that S.Johnson was in Milano though... so the liberation of Rome theory would't work to explain your theory...
Well I guess they did have a gallery (sales office) in Rome... but primary location was Milan (founded in 1836!!!)

[Dennis S]

Your right my bad. Milan is correct . I am going to edit that out not to confuse.

[Dennis S]

Just to add I don't think Johnson would be hiding the truth because I think other RSI materials may be attributed to them already.

[Dennis S]

I have never(just me) seen one of these badges with another maker. I am going to check my books for photos of RSI sailors and see if I can pick one out wearing the badge. I don't recall any at the moment.

[NickG]

Oh yes Johnson (who also made WW1 Italian victory medals) also made RSI era badges and medals such as the Monterosa Division (RSI Alpine unit) "Grupo Bergamo" badge ..."S.Johnson Milano" marked on the back!
In Sparacino's book this badge has cast (or strike) number 7939 and dates from March 1945...I just read...

and the RSI "Roma O Morte" (Rome or Death) " Distinctivo Ufficiale Per I Combttenti Del Fronte Di Roma" has a S.Johnson Firm reference number 7932, dated also March 1945 (an RSI era badge commorating the battle for Rome) and reference # 7900 is a Battalion "Lupo" badge from 1944???

and Johnson reference number (=strike number) 7911 is that cool looking RSI era (German style) paratrooper belt buckle!!! Which was instituted Aug.1, 1944 on request of (RSI) Parachute Group Command at Tradate!

Now these are all HIGHER numbers than the RSI Naval badges (series 7889-7897) and you would think that the S.Johnson company used a numerical order as a reference number to catalog each design (or contract) number...

That would make these RSI Naval badges pre March 1945... So is Sparacino contradicting himself? Unless the numbers are not in any order, which I find hard to believe...Who knows?

[Dennis S]

What we have here is an issue of not one entity, but three using the same badge. The post Armistace Navy of the South as shown of the badge without crown that you gleaned from the Regia Marina website instituted Dec. 1943. The RSI decree of May 1944 again allowing the badge without crown unknown if made or issued. Utimately the same style badge worn by the Navy of the Italian Republic again without crown and made by S. Johnson.

This type of dilemma rears its ugly head now and then in Italian collecting an example is the humble m33 helmet.

[Dennis S]

Heres another listed on E-Bay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ITALIAN-R-S-I-W-...1%7C240%3A1318

[NickG]

Heres another listed on E-Bay

[/URL]

Thanks for the tip Dennis! a greyhound + torpedo! So advertised as RSI WW2 period of course... (not 1947)
So what do you make of the casting sequence number issue and corresponding dates?
Or did Johnson perhaps not use a particular numerical order? (issues outlined in post 11...)
Nick

PS: anybody with period images of these badges in wear to share?
PPS: I purchased one of these now!!!

[BrunoC]

The badge was not produced on RSI period (possibly few pieces for sampling), but ONLY on 1947...
There aren't picture on RSI period with this badge. Only possible wearing Royal type with cutted crown or emboired/sewing type.
All you know the history of this badge, as I read. If badges was RSI period, value & rarity will be more different. This badges are quite common, royal type I've never seen to buy, in over 20 years...