Italian made German cap eagle

[90th Light]

LOL,

I see guy's, what you have is a cap that was made by the Germans and owned and worn by an Italian during the War. The owner removed the German Eagle to infuse his Italian heritage, the Italians still tried to keep some of their own Italian pride while serving within or beside the Germans. If the Italians were not a Volunteer of a certain German Unit but a Unit of Italians say on a sub-chaser, Ground pound-er, or a Supply driver they would change out some of the German Tunic's, Caps, Insignia, Etc... to some of their own. Like the Eagle on the cap, the cap was made and was probably issued/given/found by the Italian and he removed the German Eagle and added on what was known and excepted by his fellow Italians so he kept some of his Countries pride. That's why you can find some weird stuff on Caps,Tunic's,etc.. The Italians had allot of pride and made some strange patches during their rise and partnership during the War and with the Germans, now most were not standard made or issued so that's why when you find something hand made they are unique. You can find hundreds of thousands of machine made eagles as-per regulations but when you run across a hand made Eagle like Mike has they are much rarer than the norm. Some collectors don't like the unknown or non-regulation, but they belong right next to the high end items in my eye's.

So I hope I helped some, there's a few good books out that show many things the Italians or other Countries made to infuse with their service with or within the German military that were not Regulation. So it's really up to the collector, if you like the strange and unique then this is one that you won't see often.

I'll go through some of my books when I can, I'm moving now and have stuff all over but will post some other examples if you'd like.

thanks greg koepp

Thank you for the reply Greg,

I have no problem at all with unusual items. In fact when a collector can recognise such items as a variation from the text-book norm but still being 100% period and not a fake then that collector has truly come of age in this hobby.

Many times I have argued this on this forum that we collectors do not send good items to the rubbish bin just because they are a little unusual and not what we expect. I have several variation caps in my collection and I enjoy showing these to people because they are not "boring bog standard" Gets everyone thinking and shows none of us know or have seen it all.

This said however, one must always remember that such items may take longer to sell and not be worth as much as a nice text-book item until of course the collecting community decides that they are ok and readily accepts them. Then there are the fakes but that is another story.

Italian made items for the German readily fall into this variation area and as such are very interesting. A real piece of history as we say here in New Zealand and that is what is important at the end of the day. Not the maker, not the condition or who you got it off but the fact that it is real and hopefully un-touched or messed with even if the bugs have eaten some of it.

This said however, there are two things confusing me with this tropical KM cap and Italian eagle.

1/ Where there a lot of Italians serving in German units during WW2 or can we narrow this down to only certain German units ?

2/ How does an Italian in a German unit get away with that eagle. I mean his NCO's especially the CSM or RSM would be on his case and down his throat for changing a good KM tropical eagle into that esp. if he had to go on parade.

It would make a lot more sense to me if this cap does not in fact represent a fascist Italian unit fighting as Italians for the Nazi Germans to keep Italy fascist. The eagle is on a black backing and that has to have meaning perhaps of a sinister kind and one of my Italian eagles has a red tongue detail put into its beak. That also has to have meaning of a fascist kind perhaps ?

Just speculation on my part but worth asking when such an eagle turns up on such a cap. I am now hoping that some other members may post photos or images of their Italian German eagles/ caps.

Thanks Greg, I have found what you have said so far very interesting and hope we both learn more from this thread,

Chris

[NickG]

Period image

Perhaps its preference? Here's a period picture of a Wehrmacht officer who chose an Italian made ("hollywood movie type") short winged eagle over a standard one...Did he switch? Did it come with that cap?

If the cap in this period picture is tailored in Italy, the eagle is what the tailor had in stock...It also appears to have a LW type enlisted cockade!!
Note the 2 vent holes...I guess its a custom made bergmutze so that would answer the reason for this insignia!

(unlike the KM cap that started this thread...that's a factory piece that's been modifed...but when? it no doubt came the a standard BeVo KM eagle originaly!)

Enjoy the image!

[90th Light]

Thanks Nick, that is a really interesting picture.

Note also that the possible "bergmutze" cap appears to be made ftom tropical type material and is a good match to the tropical tunic he is wearing. Also the cap does not appear to have silver piping ?

Now a tropical bergmutze or M43 cap, that would be a very rare find indeed but some real ones are out there.

Being an officer of rank. I could see how this guy could legally show a preference for bullion insignia but could an enlisted man or NCO get away with it so easily. Then again may be that explains the cap which started this thread, a quick officer up-grade using an Italian made eagle with no silver piping but some thing which sticks out so there is no doubt ?

Lets hope you start a trend and some other members post period photos because at the end of the day they will probably be the real decider's on this one,

Chris

[NickG]

Thanks Nick, that is a really interesting picture.

Note also that the possible "bergmutze" cap appears to be made ftom tropical type material and is a good match to the tropical tunic he is wearing. Also the cap does not appear to have silver piping ?

Its actually a "Südfront" (Mediterranean) uniform, meaning light weight but continental in cut, not a tropical cut uniform, as it does not have a permanently open "V" neck, the true definition of a tropical tunic. The cap is custom made in similar light weight cotton but retains its buttoned front pull down flap (unlike tropical caps). Such uniforms could have been worn in Southern France, Southern Russia, Balkans or Italian front. Based on the eagle I would say in this case its the latter and probably a mountain troops officer!

[90th Light]

Its actually a "Südfront" (Mediterranean) uniform, meaning light weight but continental in cut, not a tropical cut uniform, as it does not have a permanently open "V" neck, the true definition of a tropical tunic. The cap is custom made in similar light weight cotton but retains its buttoned front pull down flap (unlike tropical caps). Such uniforms could have been worn in Southern France, Southern Russia, Balkans or Italian front. Based on the eagle I would say in this case its the latter and probably a mountain troops officer!

Thanks Nick, you are correct and I had missed that.

Looks like a tropical bergmutz or M43 just got even rarer but this is still a great photo and that cap and tunic very desirable for any ones collection,

Chris

[Gregory Koepp]

Nice photo Nick and good responses too, man I just wrote a bunch of stuff and lost all of it,, now have to re-write it if I can remember it all?? awwww.......

But Nicks photo is a good example of what Foreigners did, I can just see what the man who took the photo was thinking, (he was probably German) "MAN WE COUNDN'T WEAR A CAP LIKE THAT" that's probably why the photo was taken in the first place. You know the Italian probably had his regulation Cap with his issue that he wore to Formations and so on, then OUT comes his pride and joy Field Cap!! Also I think I have other photos of Italian Eagles in wear? but I know they are in some of my books, I'll find them when I unpack the boxes and post.

But back to the Eagles, you know most don't like or understand these, as these Eagles haven't been backed by the almighty who ever they are..LOL... even though their in the books and in photos, it's all up to if you like the Unique and strange collectibles I guess? I also have an Italian Eagle with a red tongue and I know these were carried over into the Third Reich Era even though they seem to be of the very early Fascist era. What it's going to take is for all who own or know of more to post so we can compare and see if we can get a better understanding of these, also if you have some like you say please post so we can see. OH the Eagle with the black backing above doesn't bother me one bit, I have owned another with a hard black backing that was taken off a tunic at one time.

if I remember what else I wrote that got lost somewhere I'll re-post. lol..

thanks greg koepp

[90th Light]

Thanks Greg, ok good point I will try and find my eagles and arrange to have images posted here. Like you I also have a lot of my stuff packed away so I will now have to find them. I agree with you that this thread could become very useful to both German and Italian collectors

By the way the eagle on your Italian sidecap which you posted has a red tongue. Now the next question is what does it mean

Chris

[NickG]

close up.



greg koepp

I am straying a bit from the Italian made German cap eagles topic, BUT for the record for those who might think it is...
this is actually NOT an Italian Bustina...Its just another German cap, like the KM tropical cap that started this thread!
It's a German made SA cap.... a "wehrmanschaft mutze".
Its design is copied after an Italian style cap... the color is NOT italian either...(SA brown).

[NickG]

Angolia

Here is a thread on these German made SA bustinas...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...7&highlight=sa


and this is what Angolia wrote about these SA caps...
The flap on Greg's SA German bustina (with weird eagle), appears to have the flap overlap (top) reversed...

[NickG]

period image SA men

Here are 2 period images of such Italian looking GERMAN caps as worn by SA men!

[NickG]

Nice photo Nick and good responses too, man I just wrote a bunch of stuff and lost all of it,, now have to re-write it if I can remember it all?? awwww.......

But Nicks photo is a good example of what Foreigners did, I can just see what the man who took the photo was thinking, (he was probably German) "MAN WE COUNDN'T WEAR A CAP LIKE THAT" that's probably why the photo was taken in the first place. You know the Italian probably had his regulation Cap with his issue that he wore to Formations and so on, then OUT comes his pride and joy Field Cap!! Also I think I have other photos of Italian Eagles in wear? but I know they are in some of my books, I'll find them when I unpack the boxes and post.

greg koepp

BACK TO ITALIAN MADE GERMAN EAGLES!!
We are clearly not dealing with an Italian (foreign) volunteer here...That Mountain troop officer (who is wearing that private purchase bergmutze with Italian made eagle) is a WW1 GERMAN veteran based on his medals...definitely not an Italian national in German service as you are theorizing...! Look at the ribbons + EK1 eagle spange!
Nick

[Dennis S]

Here is a pic of Italians of the 9th of Septembre( a autonomous RSI unit that fought with the Brandenburgers) unit clearly wearing
Italian uniforms with German eagles. I can't tell if the breast eagle on the
fellow is a German made one or Italian. the other looks like an Italian eagle. They appear to be wearing a mix of Italian and German uniform parts. The one looks like te cloth shoulder boards wear removed and loops added for use with German style shoulder boards.

Rather than the eagles removed by the Italian soldiers on German hats they may have been removed by the Germans when issued to Italian units then the eagles readded by the Individuals to show solidarity with the German units they were attached to.

[90th Light]

Here is a pic of Italians of the 9th of Septembre( a autonomous RSI unit that fought with the Brandenburgers) unit clearly wearing
Italian uniforms with German eagles. I can't tell if the breast eagle on the
fellow is a German made one or Italian. the other looks like an Italian eagle. They appear to be wearing a mix of Italian and German uniform parts. The one looks like te cloth shoulder boards wear removed and loops added for use with German style shoulder boards.

Rather than the eagles removed by the Italian soldiers on German hats they may have been removed by the Germans when issued to Italian units then the eagles readded by the Individuals to show solidarity with the German units they were attached to.

Wow Dennis, excellent picture. I do not think that there are any Germans in this picture. My feeling is that they are all Italians. The German breast eagle one can see is in fact one of these large Italian made toy like eagles. I feel some of these eagles were made very quickly and applied to prove as you say that these were in fact Italians loyal to the cause.

This is the type of unit I expect to see as wearing the cap which started this thread. True fighting fascists.

Also interesting is the LW belt and the two rivet studs holding the adjustment tongue or catch. I have a belt brought back from Italy with exactly those types of rivet studs holding the tongue on mine. May-be another Italian touch to German uniforms.

Thank you for posting, Chris

[JPhilip]

Hello,
this interesting pictures shows the Oberst Willibald, Kommandeur of the Gebirgsjäger Regiment 100 (5. Gebirgsjäger division), pictured here in 1941 in Kreta.

[Luca Ongaro]

this is actually NOT an Italian Bustina...Its just another German cap, like the KM tropical cap that started this thread!
It's a German made SA cap.... a "wehrmanschaft mutze".
Its design is copied after an Italian style cap... the color is NOT italian either...(SA brown).

That's right Nick, BRAVO
Luca