San Marco and Flottiglia Mas uniform

[polux]

Hello to all,

My domain of collection is totally different of collection in this forum (I am specialized in German documents), I wish to obtain the opinion from specialized persons of this forum about a uniform released on the Peter's Whamond site (The Collector Guild), to see :

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Other...s/C027158.html


A friend of Italian origin is interested in the purchase of this uniform RSI San Marco with shield Flottiglia Mas. The retail price is raised and as him and me let us have not the knowledge necessary for the authentification of this uniform, we wish ardently to be able to profit by your help.

What do you think of this uniform ? Does the group seem to you authentic ?

Awaiting for your opinions. Beforehand thank you.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[Nostradamus]

This uniform has be on ebay.com two or three times at a lower price and hasn't been sold...there's a reason why. Hat has a wrong rank chevron (for size and type) and a probably fake front bandge with unappropriate anchor (should be without star). Uniform has a fake Germany Training badge (produced in Italy many years ago), re-assembled collar tabs with original lions (these kind of lions were found brand new in an old italian producer shop) and wreaths but probably fake red background. Arm shield is original and nice but probably unissued, same story of red lions but different producer. For uniform itself and trousers I should see better photos, but I think I gave enough elements to have an idea...
Francesco

[Paolo Marzetti]

As previously said,for me too it's a reassembled uniform.No opinion on the trousers because not clearly visible. The tunic, by itself is a correct M.41 tunic with no concealed buttons.Not sure of the belt. All the badges and chevrons have been newly stitched, even if nothing to say on the X^ arm badge, on the San Marco collar patches, on the Albanian Campaign pin badge and on the breast ribbons. I've no elements on the RSI Training in Germany breast badge.
The beret's badge doesn't look to me a repro, but I don't know what does mean the small five pointed star superimposed on the issue anchor. Generally
these berets had smaller chevron (not always worn) on the left side, but I've
photos that show also the NCO's unproper use of larger ones like in this case.
What to say? Surely overpriced.Cheers PaoloM

[polux]

Hello,

Thank you to you Francesco and Paolo for your invaluable information. I passed these information to my friend. Still thank you for your help.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[Lafitte]

Yes i agree with the other opinions that uniform is it totally reassembled, i have my doubts on the jacket too.
The belt is it for a normal m.40 jacket the colors are different that for para was different!

[Paolo Marzetti]

..The belt is it for a normal m.40 jacket the colors are different that for para was different!

Yes, but it is not a para tunic, in fact it has no concealed buttons. It is an M.41
with' bottoniera scoperta' mainly used by R. Navy special troops and later widely tailored during the RSI period. PaoloM

[Lafitte]

But parà jackets is it also m.41 if is it made in grey green wool cloth!
For a sure attribution about that with or without visible buttons must be doing referiment tho te era regolamentation, unlucky i don't have this.
Of couse during the Royal Era the original pics help for a good knowledge.
If we want tolk about a regolamentar m.41 jacket made during the Royal era this must be have others particolarities like greygreen lining and ink marks, in the late of 1943 like for the REI jackes the grey raion linings was replaced from others kinds of linings in some cases.
That in sell not have this particolarities but have got a officers sarorial diagonal lining like the normal m.40 jackets in gagardine cloth.
In every case that beld dont' go with that jacket. The construction in general appear suspect like the big wings and the black buttons.
Rank chevrons not are original of WW2 era with black strap is it for the post war jackets, during the war the strap was greygreen.
The badge of the cap is it a know fake, the red collar tabs are fake too probably that product of the Filatelica Fiorentina, Lions and Gladios are originals the Lions are a late model with big head know like Bregonzio model.
Traing in German badge is it a fake but on a jacket of X° MAS looks strange because that unit never sty in german for the traing so on that uniform we don't understand if this one are for S.Marco division or for X°Mas!!
Trousers are an interesting model but no regolaments for a troop parà uniform, unlucky the lining of the pockets are replaced with orrible with cotton lining the original sand lining survive only in the top of the trousers and say what that pants was made from 1943 to the end of the war, with the 2 little straps in the down can be a model made for sergents.
The arm schield is it original, varnish model in zamac alloy.
For do a good XMAS free must be apply a a ost fron ribbon and a EKII ribbon.
In every case for that price is it too much, only some pieces of this unifor are original the others ........ !!

[Paolo Marzetti]

Lafitte, I've not understood everything you're writing. However we're not talking about a para M.41 tunic with concealed buttons, but about an M.41
collarless tunic M.41 with not concealed buttons, mainly used in wartime by special naval units NP included.IMHO the arm badge and the collar patches are good even if stitched again, probably in recent times.You're sure the beret's badge is a well known repro (I was only asking what may be the meaning of a five pointed star on the anchor...!Do you know that?I don't.).I don't know what the Filatelica Fiorentina has for sale right now and I don't think the WA members are interested in this, but I think we all agree that this ensemble has been reassembled .I agree with the belt, not of issue for this tunic.You're suspicious on the construction of the tunic.I'm not for what it has been shown. Question of opinion.
You write:"...Traing in German badge is it a fake but on a jacket of X° MAS looks strange because that unit never sty in german for the traing so on that uniform we don't understand if this one are for S.Marco division or for X°Mas!!..." I think is correct in fact we don't know if it has been a San Marco tunic or a X^ tunic, but who knows that some people of the X^, has been ever
trained in Germany together with the San Marco Div.? Some published memories dealing with X^ NPs say that few members stationed for a while in Germany in the same period of the training of the San Marco Div, as specialists in Italian explosives. This matter needs deep research. PaoloM

[Lafitte]

Paolo, here we talk about a very suspicios jacket not necessary if that isi it a para model o a special troops of the Royal Navy, the introduction of the theme was about the originality or not of the complete. Like the jacket is it made must be for X° MAS unit but we know what oftem RSI troops wear jackets with or without cover buttons for lot of reasons (depots where the jackes was finds, old jackets made during the Royal era or jackets of new costruction or from sartorial mades ect etc. )
Why you think what the menber of WA forum not are interest to know what the honest Filatelica Fiorentina shop have for sale this kind of collar tabs for the reenactors?
For english fair play? Censure?
Probably the problem stay in the precedent collector what have add that collars, i'm oly say what this are very similar to the F.F. model with a very hairy red cloth with sintetic inclusions and with a very heavy color for a cloth old 60 years!
Is it like to talk about the metallic repro bagdes or metallic repro shields for Alpini troops sells from lot of people on international markets like originals but in reality born ( in hostest realities) for the vet market some years ago.
Yes the badge of the cap is it a fake very similars, with artificially aged patina, at some pieces come on the markets few years ago, unlucky in the first time someone think what this can be goods so lot of collectors buy this like original but in reality unlucky the history was different!!
Why every fak cap for X° MAS or San Marco what i see have the bullion badge? And that in metallics where are?
The reality the metallic badges is it difficolt to made, the original models are know in 2-3 variants so remade a perfect coin are very difficolt, the originals are rare and so for a fake uniform or a fake cap nobody want spend lot of money for an original badge!
For the anchor with the star i not have data but that can be used from sussistence like on CC.NN. metallic badges, that anchor remember me something but related to the strange badges for the Royal Navy like the embroyed badges with letters or similia in use for particolars units.
About the badge of training of course every thing can be appened at the time, some one can be stay in Gemany for the training or some soldier of San Marco can be translated to the X°MAS but that badge on that jacket is it a red flag, in every case not in that color for a sergeant!
Problably who have got that uniform not like the silver badge on a gold total look so he think to put a gold badge for a good eye shoot!
Historical theme is it only a good compendium Paolo, in that case we must llok the pieces not the history on this!
Unlucky not all the uniforms in grey green wool cloth must be originals or military and what i see i don't like very much!

[Paolo Marzetti]

Paolo, here we talk about a very suspicios jacket not necessary if that isi it a para model o a special troops of the Royal Navy, the introduction of the theme was about the originality or not of the complete. Like the jacket is it made must be for X° MAS unit but we know what oftem RSI troops wear jackets with or without cover buttons for lot of reasons (depots where the jackes was finds, old jackets made during the Royal era or jackets of new costruction or from sartorial mades ect etc. )
I think everybody, since the beginning of this thread,expressed his impressions
saying this ensemble has been reassembled.In this way, I agree this may be
suspicious, but IMHO not on the tunic itself.
Why you think what the menber of WA forum not are interest to know what the honest Filatelica Fiorentina shop have for sale this kind of collar tabs for the reenactors? For english fair play? Censure?
Come on, Lafitte! If we want to deal with the FF stuff we can open a new thread! We've no proof the suspicious badge/s come from FF!Why censure?Are you ever been censored here?
Probably the problem stay in the precedent collector what have add that collars, i'm oly say what this are very similar to the F.F. model with a very hairy red cloth with sintetic inclusions and with a very heavy color for a cloth old 60 years! For what I know there are a lot of fakes all around about the San Marco collar patches and the most part of the fakes are made with pannolence, a cloth that during WWII did not exist. By a simple photo, without a stereoscopic mirror, it's unpossible to state,even if one maybe a wizard!
Is it like to talk about the metallic repro bagdes or metallic repro shields for Alpini troops sells from lot of people on international markets like originals but in reality born ( in hostest realities) for the vet market some years ago.
Yes the badge of the cap is it a fake very similars, with artificially aged patina, at some pieces come on the markets few years ago, unlucky in the first time someone think what this can be goods so lot of collectors buy this like original but in reality unlucky the history was different!!
Why every fak cap for X° MAS or San Marco what i see have the bullion badge? And that in metallics where are?
The reality the metallic badges is it difficolt to made, the original models are know in 2-3 variants so remade a perfect coin are very difficolt, the originals are rare and so for a fake uniform or a fake cap nobody want spend lot of money for an original badge! I think this field maybe very useful:considering your knowledge, why you don't open a thread?This maybe very helpful to the WA members dealing this matter!
For the anchor with the star i not have data but that can be used from sussistence like on CC.NN. metallic badges, that anchor remember me something but related to the strange badges for the Royal Navy like the embroyed badges with letters or similia in use for particolars units.
Yes, I had not thought to this...
About the badge of training of course every thing can be appened at the time, some one can be stay in Gemany for the training or some soldier of San Marco can be translated to the X°MAS but that badge on that jacket is it a red flag, in every case not in that color for a sergeant! Maybe so!

Problably who have got that uniform not like the silver badge on a gold total look so he think to put a gold badge for a good eye shoot!
Historical theme is it only a good compendium Paolo, in that case we must llok the pieces not the history on this!I agree Lafitte

Unlucky not all the uniforms in grey green wool cloth must be originals or military and what i see i don't like very much! I think it's not only your opinion considering also the total price ! Cheers, PaoloM

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