CCNN Tunic Opinions

[Waffenreich]

Good afternoon gents,

I am dipping my toes into some Italian material to get back to my ethnic roots and round out my collection a little more. Last week I picked up two tunics and wanted to run this one by you guys to get your opinions. I've been pouring through pics on-line and here in the pinned Threads to see if I can find anything similar. What I've gathered so far is that it's an MVSN service tunic for a Camicia Nera Scelta. Does the anti-aircraft cypher and 12 on the shoulder straps indicate assignment to the Coastal Anti-Aircraft Artillery squad of the 12th Monte Bianco Battalion? Also, from what I can read the stamp looks like an acceptance stamp, however I can't make out all of the words so if anybody can clarify its exact meaning and structure I would be most grateful.

The uniform is on approval so please be brutal. Even though there are some reference masterworks here on WAF, I'd like to learn as much as possible from you all with experience on these.

Thanks in advance and have a good evening.

Saluti.

Bob

[Semovente]

Hello Waffenreich , interesting tunic indeed !..a M37 from the date inside on the stamp & the type of waist belt it has , it appears to be a acceptance stamp inside but i cannot make out which Maggazino depot its from ??...the red cuff ranks for C.N.Scelta came in 1931 but i would have thought by 1937 they would be replaced by later black & silver type ?..also & i might be wrong the collar fasces are brass/gold !..i think from my understanding that they should be white metal fasces ?...can you see under the shoulder board badges for any impression left by the suns fading the tunic ?...again i could be wrong ?..but i have a feeling its been Added too ? ....Semovente...

[Waffenreich]

Good evening Ed.

Thanks for taking the time to look the tunic over and provide comments.

First - the acceptance stamp. I see Terni 25 1 39 at the bottom. Does this mean the tunic was accepted on 25 Jan 1939 at the Terni depot? Also, is it possible the first part says "Magazzino-Vestiario" or "Clothing Warehouse"?

With regards to lifting the fasces on the shoulder straps and looking for surrounding fading - this tunic looks externally factory fresh. There is no lightening to the wool at all and although I did look under there yesterday all I saw was the impression of the cyphers where they were screwed down tightly. I'm not familiar enough (yet) to know the correct combination of finishes on the cyphers, buttons, etc., however I just found another tunic of the same pattern configured the same way (red Scelta rank lace, brass/gilt collar and shoulder strap fasces, and brass/gilt buttons) that received much love from the members: http://www.milistory.net/forum/unifo...lta-vt133.html The only differences are it's missing the wool belt and shoulder strap cyphers.

German uniforms are so much easier to identify and tell if they have been embellished

Thanks again for taking the time to provide your thoughts.

Anybody else

Regards!

Bob

[Semovente]

Hello my friend no problem only to happy to help , as it can a minefield with some of this kit .....yes the stamps details are correct but with the E.F. date XVII its made between Oct 38 & Oct 39 !..when i said M37 i was reffering to the tunics type/model inparticular with that style of metal belt it has , but its lost its black collar , scalloped pocket flaps & pointed cuffs all features of those tunics !... maybe altered to bring it in line with the M40 tunics that came next !
the bit of liner material were the stamp is looks faded & worn.. so some wear to it inside ? ..But it looks very unworn otherwise , although the mefal ribbons look sun faded !? , ...maybe it is ok ?..& iam been over cautious , but i just have a niggle about it ..see what other guys think ?..Ed

[Waffenreich]

Ed,

I've been looking at this more all night and with respect to the stamp I think it may say "Magazzino-Vetralla Sez.Milizia Contraerei" or "Warehouse-Vetralla Militia Anti-aircraft Section Terni 25 Jan 1939".

Vetralla is a city in Lazio about 73Km west of Terni. Terni was the HQ of the 16^ Legion MVSN Anti-Aircraft. The 12^ Legion was HQ'd in Bologna and served in Rimini. This makes sense for a coastal unit which if I remember reading correctly is what the 12^ was.

Regarding wear to the stamp. I think it's just an uneven light strike. The exterior is mint, however there is some slight soiling to the sleeve lining near the cuffs.

I'm still interested in hearing thoughts about the shoulder strap cyphers and whether-or-not others think they may have been added post-war.

I understand your "niggle" feeling as I generally get that on every German uniform I handle until I do the forensic examination on it to put my mind at ease or flush it down the toilet.

Best regards!

Bob

[Semovente]

Yes no probs Bob...just a little foot note.. yes i think with your research into the label youve nailed it , i did notice from the link on that other site.. the tunic featured there has conciderable wear to it externally ..unlike this example , but it all depends on were its been & whats happened to it since ?...but i hope with other eyes on it ..that it turns out ok for you Bob..regards Ed

[Dennis S]

I think it’s Ok . Seems to be what it supposed to be by the magazine stamp , piping and buttons .It may have had bits changed over the years and maybe possibly restored a bit . The Italians were not that hard ass with regulations as the Germans especially the militia . I have seen insignia poorly hand sewn on original untouched Tunics . I think it’s a fine representative piece the tunic as a whole is very nice being marked as such. Who can say when the shoulder insignia was added .

As far as the Scelta chevrons , I collect much later combat stuff (RSI) so I can’t say if sometimes carried over By the militia. Ribbons do tend to fade faster then wool material but if they are excessively worn maybe post war added . Then again could have been taken off an earlier Model tunic that he owned .

Again from the photos a nice piece even if partially restored

[Dennis S]

Edit

[Dennis S]

I don’t know what happened there. I was trying to edit a few more words got all kind of error messages . This site has got goofy.

[Waffenreich]

I appreciate your reply Dennis and I agree, the Italians, based on what I have seen in pictures did not have the same degree of uniformity, nor adherence to regulations that the Germans did. This in my opinion makes it difficult with 100% certainty to validate items, unless they come directly from a source with rock-solid provenance.

I'm comfortable enough with this to believe it has not been restored. When I pulled it out of the box it gave me that kind of "one-looker" gut feeling.

Thanks again and good hunting!

Saluti.

Bob

[Dennis S]

I like it .....enjoy

[Semovente]

I like it .....enjoy

Thats the thing thats most important here in the end..if your happy with it !!...its difficult sometimes to judge with out it in hand to handle the item !..my best mate who has collected militaria for 45 years has always when he got a new tunic in front of him , picked it up & put it to his face & then...smelled it !!..." you cannot fake that smell " he told me !.. thats the smell of original history !...fakes dont smell like that ! .....iam glad Bob that someone else like Dennis has OK'd with some resevations as myself but yes its grown on me ...Ed

[Waffenreich]

Thats the thing thats most important here in the end..if your happy with it !!...its difficult sometimes to judge with out it in hand to handle the item !..my best mate who has collected militaria for 45 years has always when he got a new tunic in front of him , picked it up & put it to his face & then...smelled it !!..." you cannot fake that smell " he told me !.. thats the smell of original history !...fakes dont smell like that ! .....iam glad Bob that someone else like Dennis has OK'd with some resevations as myself but yes its grown on me ...Ed

I now have one less sweater in my closet, but I think that's what put it over the edge Ed. I think if you were able to have this in your hand that you'd agree that it talks to you.

Best regards and thanks for showing an interest and commenting

Saluti!

Bob

[Waffenreich]

I don’t know what happened there. I was trying to edit a few more words got all kind of error messages . This site has got goofy.

Dennis, I get the same error every time I try to edit a post. I hit "OK" and then refresh the page and it saves it.

[Semovente]

Dennis, I get the same error every time I try to edit a post. I hit "OK" and then refresh the page and it saves it.

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