Sturm Wrapper

[Simon L]

Some ideas for you

You could do this basic inspection first, look under the arms, at the sleeve ends and under the lapels, is there any re-inforcing under the lapels like lots of dots of sewing? Also is the wear under the lapels soft and like new in comparison to the out side, make sure it doesn't feel like its had the blow torch treatment on the outside.
The reason I think it's ok is the pile looks good, I also think I may have handled this exact wrap a while ago at Beltring in the UK, also the liner is not commonly faked, I understand Michaels reservations about the numbering but I have seen that type before.
Once you have done that get Wade in Australia to have a look at it, he is an authority, I have sent him an email asking him to take a look.

[djpool]

Unfortunately the fakers are getting so good its becoming impossible to make an accurate assessment on clothing items without having the piece in hands. I still contend the most condemning feature on this piece are the stamps. Simon mentioned hes seen that type stamping on original items. So if someone could show us a similar stamping on an original piece it would be appreciated. I've seen several tunics on the forum over the last year where the stamping was the major reason it was declared a repro. So if this flaw is corrected (and it will be) will it be possible to assess an item accurately using pictures?

I did some comparisons of the stamping, wool, and liner against KNOWN Reproductions. Bears example is marked "test" in each case. Now the wool and liner comparisons are not the best. They really only show that repros are made using a variety of materials, in a number of colors etc. The only true comparison of the wool and liner could have been made if I had all the subject items in hand, so I could photograph them using the same lighting,camera settings etc. I only used a small sampling of the various reproductions out there.Mostly items from firms that specialize in making clothes for re enactors.

Regards Jim

[djpool]

more stamps

[djpool]

Comparison of the wool.

[djpool]

liners 1

[djpool]

liners 2

[Simon L]

Jim

Jim, those are great graphics but to be honest it boils down to handling of the item, wear is exceedingly difficult to fake, so if the attributes are correct you have be open to variation, no one on this or any forum has seen every wrapper that was produced, or even has the experience to decide something is fake on the basis of a difference in sizing italics.
I would be very interested to get an answer to some of the basic questions I asked, 1. cuff wear whats it like? 2. underarm wear inside the sleeve, is it manufactured? 3. what is the area under the lapels like 4. are the buttton holes properly finished BOTH sides, you can properly check any panzer wrapper on this basis before deciding the italics make it a fake.
Unless fakers are employing individuals to wear the items for a year in the field, then its pretty impossible to fake in my opinion if you know what it looks like.
The fakes are just so unlike this one.

[Simon L]

Plus I will add

I could show you a multiple of variations on the SS-BW markings in SS panzer wraps, they are all different, it doesn't make the items concerned wrong. There is a very large variation not even known in supposed authoritive books.
I think its better to look at the whole first.

[djpool]

Jim, those are great graphics but to be honest it boils down to handling of the item, wear is exceedingly difficult to fake, so if the attributes are correct you have be open to variation, no one on this or any forum has seen every wrapper that was produced, or even has the experience to decide something is fake on the basis of a difference in sizing italics.
I would be very interested to get an answer to some of the basic questions I asked, 1. cuff wear whats it like? 2. underarm wear inside the sleeve, is it manufactured? 3. what is the area under the lapels like 4. are the buttton holes properly finished BOTH sides, you can properly check any panzer wrapper on this basis before deciding the italics make it a fake.
Unless fakers are employing individuals to wear the items for a year in the field, then its pretty impossible to fake in my opinion if you know what it looks like.
The fakes are just so unlike this one.

Simon,

I agree. Hands on is the best way to check any item. My question is as the fakes get better, will we able to assist or ask for assistance using pictures as the basis of making an evaluation. As I was checking the repro sites out, I found that some did offer used clothing. Many of the fakes are artificially aged, have repairs on them, theater stamps etc. I'm sure some clothing worn by re enactors ends up being sold as original pieces. I wouldn't put it past some of these fakers to hire re enactors or other folks to wear their items. We're talking big money these days for original wraps as you well know.

I'm not a believer in only textbook items, I love variations. But they have to be scrutinized carefully these days. Just look at the thread on 1st Pattern Army Camo Smocks. What a minefield! Jim

[Bear]

Thanks for all the comments everyone....

I have been trying to contact someone so that I can send it out for a hands on expert opinion. Hopefully soon I will here back from someone. When I get the final word I'll post it ASAP. This may take sometime...

Anyway I took a few more pictures of what seem to be repairs...
My pictures look like police blue but the color is green...

thanks,
bear

[Bear]

cuff

[Bear]

last one...

[Bear]

1

[Bear]

2

[djpool]

I could show you a multiple of variations on the SS-BW markings in SS panzer wraps, they are all different, it doesn't make the items concerned wrong. There is a very large variation not even known in supposed authoritive books.
I think its better to look at the whole first.

Simon,

I don't study SS items so I can't comment about them. On the Army side most tunics items seem to have been processed through 10 depots. There are also items that aren't depot stamped. There are definately differences between depots and even within depots on stamping. I've been collecting pictures of various stampings by depot and year to see if there are any conclusions that can be drawn.At this point I don't have enough data. I did compare Bears stamp to every stamp I have and haven't found a match. Heres the closest I've found so far-

Berlin