Purchased off the Estand recently. I believe these pieces all came from the same individual originally. I have been looking for a set with the cyphers for some time.
As always, comments welcome!
As always, comments welcome!
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replaced
The very poorly stitched braid to the orange board as well as the orange cord on the collar tabs looks to me like someone has changed the original pipings post-war. The mess on the bottom sides of the boards is not consistent with anything I have ever seen on what I consider to be originals. -
(POST 1 of 3)
Originally posted by pauke View Post
I have to disagree with this assessment.
Below I will post the original pictures of the boards in alternate light.
First things first, both the rank and ordnance pips are original, I examined them very closely when I owned this set. And just for the sake of argument I will mention that neither the boards nor the stitching glowed either. I had 2 people look these boards over in hand at the SOS show this past February as well prior to my picking them up who agreed with the following assessment.
Ive handled thousands of single / pairs of shoulder boards and collar tabs over the years and in hand I could not see anything that would throw me off from them as not being period originals. The big question that you bring up is the stitching on the back of both the boards and tabs. You may not have seen this before, but I have a number of times (albeit a very few). The stitching pattern on both the tabs and boards is consistent with someone who would have had to change position / specialty in the field.
Now what I mean by that is, Ive had infantry boards converted to Panzer Gren / signals boards (from a vet grouping) that were converted to artillery.
Field changes are rare, and unfortunately I dont have pics of either of the above mentioned sets (this was about 7 years ago) as my old computer's hard drive crashed. HOWEVER, for the latter, the grouping was to a soldier in the heer who started out as signals and was transfered to artillery. All of the boards from his EM rank up to his most recent rank (major) were in the set as well as the corresponding award documents and enlistment papers. On a side note it was hypothesized that he died at some point in late 1944. His change of position came when he was LT rank in early 1943 if memory serves correct.
Anyway back to the topic at hand. The materials used in the set are correct as well as the piping material on the tabs / base material on the boards. Theres no way to prove that 100% via pictures as you would need to have the pieces in hand / feel and examine said material up close as I did. But the below photos will show the pieces in better light / detail.
The last few pieces of supporting evidence begin with the way the cyphers were mounted. They were secured onto only the top layer of the boards after which the orange base was sewn on instead of having the cyphers go all the way through the board like un-altered sets do (See post 3 for a similar WW1 example). As for the tabs, the standard construction would consist of the piping being sewn onto the surface layer first followed by the input of the buckram or backing material. On tabs that have backing material you normally would not see any stitching of the piping since it would be covered by said backing material. I hypothesize that the individual who wore these took out the piping without taking the tabs apart / had to sew through the tabs. The stitching itself is consistent with someone who would have had to do it in the field / wasnt too good at sewing. Converted / odd-ball waffenrock sets pop up all of the time so its not outside of the realm of possibility that this was done to boards as well (See post 2 for WAF links).
The biggest stigma when it comes to the hobby is that there is a camp of people who believe "everything must be pristine / exact to standards" when it comes to German stuff and leave no room for variation. Remember what happened in the war though. Alot of soldiers / units were on the front lines for long periods of time. They didnt care if the stitching was up to par, they were more worried about getting through the next day. I have seen some of the crudest field made stuff you can think of (including POW made awards / field sewn eagles / field made patches) both on WAF and over the years at shows / in person. I once had a person that tried to argue that a pair of reichsbahn boards that I had (matching) were not matching because one board was 2 mm longer than the other (even though every other detail was down to a T). He argued: "every set must be identical in dimensions or its fake / put together", which is simply not true.
But again, as w/ all posts on WAF of a similar nature, at the end of the day, its up to the owner of said piece(s) to decide.
Continued in posts 2 & 3
EDIT - To add, also upon closer inspecting of the photos if you look at the reverse pic of the tab on the right youll see black thread which points to the possibility that the tabs were pioneer at some point.Comment
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(POST 2 of 3)
Below I am attaching a number of WAF links which show non-regulation / field made & converted boards / tunics. As well as a picture of a Nebel board (which is 100% correct in construction / materials) w/ a field painted regimental symbol. One of the below links also mentions painted boards.
Field Made KM Boards:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=8438888
Field Promoted Cavalry Boards w/ Luft Tresse Sewn On:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=304489
Gallery of Non-Regulation Waffenrocks Including Pictures in Use:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...houlder+boards
GD boards field converted from Cavalry to Panzer / Boards field converted from Artillery to Fortress Pioneer:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=122664
Continued in post 3Comment
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(POST 3 of 3)
As mentioned in the first post I will attach pictures of a WW1 board which was used in a similar manner to the ordnance examples being discussed. You will note that this is just the top layer of the board, and as with the ordnance boards the cypher was attached to the top layer only. At this stage we dont know if it was on the board when it was first made, or attached while being re purposed, the point being that the characteristics are similar. You will see in the below pictures, circles of 2 colors which highlight parts on the board where you can see what the original base threads were. The board was definitely re purposed at some point as there are both red and brown (similar to luft signals piping color) rogue threads throughout.
In closing, I will echo what I wrote at the end of Post 1: At the end of the day, after examining all the evidence, for and against, its up to the owner to decide. I have provided all of the info and knowledge that I have on the manner, I rest my case.
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Well,
This is a lively debate.
As the new owner of this set, I'm interested in further discussion on the insignia. Pauke, how do you feel about the salient points raised by NYDigger1?Comment
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Anyone else have anything to add here? I see salient points on both sides and welcome the discussion...
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