An ?unusual hat wreath?

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

I have a question on this one. The construction is good (definitely die-struck aluminium), the prongs and MM (OLC in a diamond) both appear wartime (although I know OLC produced post-war) but the wreath design is unusual to me in that there is a wide gap at the top and there are only 2 acorns on either side. The black rosette is a separate piece (?leather?) and, although hard to made out, the obverse of the horizontal bars holding the cockade are painted dark green. Any comments?

Regards
Mike K

[Mike Kenny]

Reverse...

[sb98]

Hi Mike,

That sure is an ugly one (no offense). The quality doesn't seem up to snuff for a war-time or pre-war piece. There are a lot of design differences between it and the standard war time Heer wreath. The green paint on it makes me it might be Bundeswehr but that's just a guess, I'm not up on that stuff. I'll be curious to see what it turns out to be.

Here's a wartime one with the cockade being a separate piece.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Mike, interesting item and one that I cannot id either Looks to be Third Reich (or possibly earlier) in construction.

It is not a Heer item. It will be something a little more obscure. Not Customs, as I have one of those. The answer will be in the Company's sales catalog for sure.

Hi Tim, it cannot be Bundeswehr as they did not use the black/white/red national colours, but used red / black/ gold instead.

Cheers, Ade.

[sb98]

Hi Ade.,

I tought of the gold color of the Bundeswehr after I wrote my post so the colors on this one must be wartime or before. It doesn't strike me as anything military related, probably some type of civil service?

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Tim, Ade,

Thanks for your replies. Seems this is a hard one after all! I'll keep looking for an ID, but at least now I know to look for more obscure origins.

Regards
Mike K

[atcase]

Hi Mike,

if you have access to Headgear of Hitlers Germany check out the first section of the Kriegsmarine section. Though they do not show your cockade the bullion version shown sure comes close !(JMO)
Ashley

[otto]

Cap Wreath

Bundsewehr early one with the cockade replaced with a TR era cockade.

[sb98]

Bundsewehr early one with the cockade replaced with a TR era cockade.

That would make sense, the quality it just to poor for an earlier piece, IMO. It might also explain the odd material for the rosette. The aluminum color doesn't seem right either, its to grey.

Ashley - I thought Kriegsmarine only used gold colored devices. Did they use silver too?

[atcase]

Hi all,

the main reason i went for K/M was because of the four acorns which is more usual in the K/M but most of these insignias have 2 leaves between the acorns.
Tim silver was used by K/M administrative officals to include pith helmet eagle shields.
Ashley

[sb98]

Hi Ashley,

I hadn't noticed the silver KM devices before. I just pulled out one of my Brian Leigh Davis books and there it is in a drawing of an Administrative Official. Not to get off the subject, but that silver cap eagle the same design as a Heer or KM gold one?

I think the green paint on Mike's would rule out KM though, I would expect the green to match the color of the cap it was attached to. The black paint on the cockade looks a bit funny to me too. It looks like flat paint where all the pre-war and war-time ones I've seen have a glossy finish.

(edit - Never mind my comment about black paint. For some reason when I read your first post I thought you meant the red part was leather.)

[lbsr]

As I know BW never use cockade - the use crossed swords/wings inside tgew wreath (I have 1st edition of BW uniform regulatioons) & original insignia too...
Maybe early BGS/Marine? But it this case wreath must be gold...

[Mike Kenny]

The aluminum color doesn't seem right either, its to grey.

Hi guys,

Thanks for the additional discussion. I neglected to mention it, but the front (only) of the wreath has a laquer of some sort which has darkened a bit. I'll take the cockade off the wreath and post a couple more images in the next 24 hours.

Regards
Mike K

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

A couple more images as promised.

Looking at the black section of the cockade in more detail, another possibility is that it may not be leather but instead heavily pressed cardboard.

Regards
Mike K

[Mike Kenny]

The cockade...