panzer wrapper

[Giel VW]

Phil and Tony, thank you very much for the great replies
Kind regards,
Giel

[willysproject]

Phil and Tony, thank you very much for the great replies
Kind regards,
Giel

Indeed, that's great Giel !

Are there anymore experts who can give their opinion on this wrapper ??

regards,
Gerd

[Tom M]

Indeed, that's great Giel !

Are there anymore experts who can give their opinion on this wrapper ??

regards,
Gerd

Im no expert but I can say this is very nice wrapper. To be short, 1943 produced in Hamburg to a Gefreiter. It is also intereisting note what Phil said, as the Rb no's were introduced around 1942 to prevent allied intelligence. I agree with the eagle being replaced also.

Cheers.

[Giel VW]

An other, rather small question, but what would you pay for such a tunic?

[CSP]

Giel:
Phild gave you a very good review of this uniform. It is possible - but impossible for us to tell from the pictures - that all of the isignia is replaced. The collar tabs look like the earlier wool piped style and not the rayon style. The wool is typically asscoiated with earlier uniforms, but there is no doubt that they saw extended use throughout the war.

Phild: where/how did you aquire the information that all uniforms came to the depots with the paper tag? I am not challenging the statement at all...it is just a research bit of information I would like to have if you know.

[phild]

Depot stamps and Maker's tags

Scott, That's a fair question regarding the maker tags, let me start by saying that I should have not indicated that they ALWAYS had these tags when they left the makers, I of course don't know. The words always and never, should rarely be used in this hobby.

I have, over the last 30+ years, encounters a number uniform items (maybe a dozen) that had paper/cardboard tags found in pockets with the makers name, size markings and item name and date stmped on them. In all cases that I recall this same information (more or less) was ink stamped in the item as well. These tags all showed signs of large (long) sewing threads where they had been attached to the garmet. Later in the 1980's, I collected in Europe and I started encountering more unissued items that still had these tags attached and the same story with the ink stampings inside.

I feel confident in saying that the size ink stampings along with the depot letter and date were applied by the depot and not the maker. I could write a page or two on why I feel this is the case, but suffice it to say that it would make less than no sense at all for a maker to stamp a depot abrev. in a uniform and the size markings are always clearly of the same origin as the depot letter and date. I will say that often the Rbnr or maker's name is done in a ink,font and location that is inconsistant with the rest of the stampings (size and depot year) and this begs the question if these were also depot applied or could they have been maker applied? My opinion is that they were probably also depot applied and that perhaps the makers had to supply the depot with their maker name stamps...since some of these are somtimes seen in a "fancier" font that simply block letters. It is generally accepted that every maker had one depot where they delivered or shipped. Items were sometimes transferred between depots and can be found so marked (rare to find) but this was transparent to the maker.

It would seem to me that the processing personnel at the depot verified the garment size and transcribed the numbers on the tag to be permanent on the item. They also stamped the year they recieved it and their location letter. They also stamped the maker's name or Rbnr so that the origin of the item could be traced if items had systemic quality problems. The depot level may or may not have altered garmet sizes to fit unsatisfied demand and so marked them, I have no hard evidence of that, merely a suspicion.
Unit stamps and the Roman numeral condition stamps found on the early pre war clothing items were obviously appled at the unit level...in most cases Company level based on that designation being almost always incorporated into the stamping.

As to the PZ wrap's insignia, I agree with your comments. I will say, as you also indicated, that the wool piped tabs can be found from time to time period sewn to later war wraps. I think that they were still very much in use by say 1942 and can be seen in much lessor numbers in 43 and beyond.
Much as been made over the use of rayon piping as a wartime and late wartime characteristic. It is indeed true, however rayon was also used pre-war as well. According to Angola's "Uniforms and Equipment of the German Army" series it was approved for use in 1936/37 as board cypher application and as piping in 1938/39. I have certainly seen and own examples of pre-war insignia with rayon piping to include officers shoulder boards, an old style officers piped field blouse (pz) and Pz wap collar and collar tab piping. I don't think it was real common and the examples that I have are a very tight attractive grade of material. I think it looks actually better than the wool piping, especially on the black wraps...maybe that's is why it was chosen as an option by Officer's who could make a choice...I don't know.
I guess my point is, collectors should not always catergorize rayon piping as wartime (and certainly not late war) as varieties of it were also used in the pre-war period...at least in the later 1930's.

[phild]

An other, rather small question, but what would you pay for such a tunic?

Assuming that all of the insignia is original and is orginally attached except the breast eagle. I would say that I doubt that one would find a comparable wrap from a dealer for less than $4000 (some would ask $5000). I have seen some sell for more than would rate lower than this one. Most every wrap that I have seen that is original has brought at least $3000 (during the last 3 years or so) unless it had some major problems. So I guess that I am saying between and 3 and 4 thousand dollars would be a range of the market value. The replaced eagle will bother some more than others.

If anyone thinks that my valuation is on the high side, I would ask them if they have priced a set of ORIGINAL Pz tabs latley (or seen any for say in the last 10 to 20 years?) or set or detachable Pz EM straps (they are all on SS tunics!!) then get back to me.

[Tom M]

Thanks Phil for sharing your knowledge on the subject. Of course, Variations of all sorts appear in Pz wraps, such unpiped 1st pattern wraps and 2nd pattern wraps. It's the fun in deciphering them


Cheers.

[phild]

piped wraps

I do not believe that wraps were officially piped after some point in 1939. In other words I believe that collar piping was officially discontiued from being added by the maker during some point that year. This is not to say that some ownes had piping added to the collars of non-piped wraps, perhaps right through late war. I have seen one or two 43 dated wraps with period added collar piping and clearly set up as best dress uniforms. I have NEVER seen a 1940 or later dated wrap with FACTORY collar piping. I have seen a number of 1939 wraps (none dated earlier) that showed no traces of ever having piping. I have seen a very very few pre 39 wraps (both the so-called 1st and 2nd models) that had signs of the original piping being removed.

The above goes againist what is presented in most all references on the subject, but I feel that I am correct with my deductions. Original collar piped wraps are very hard to find...maybe one out of ten wraps seen will have period piping. Any wrap dated prior to 1939 is hard to find in my experience and the 39 dated wraps tend to mostly be found without collar piping, but maybe 30 to 40% of the 39 dated ones will be found with the piping.

I don't intend any of my comments to be taken as universal truths in regards to PZ wraps, merely as my observations.

[Giel VW]

Sorry for pulling this thread up, but I want to thank you, Philip, for all the information you could gave me
I also wanted to say that the wrap was sold to someone else because I asked to wait one day
And final, it sold for 1250 euro and I missed it

[Greg Kubasek]

1250 Euro?? that was one hell of a deal!

Sorry for pulling this thread up, but I want to thank you, Philip, for all the information you could gave me
I also wanted to say that the wrap was sold to someone else because I asked to wait one day
And final, it sold for 1250 euro and I missed it

[Giel VW]

I know

[Lloyd I.]

Did anyone else notice the Orb floating near the tunic in the first image?

Based on my experience with phenomena surrounding III.R items I feel that it is an original orb characteristic of those associated with the Panzerwaffe. Also, I do not believe it was added postwar but is original to the tunic.

Whoever acquired this lovely wrap at that bargain basement price has also gotten themselves a spirit to go with it ...maybe that was why it was so inexpensive to begin with.

All joking aside, it wouldnt be the first time I have heard of things like the above as it relates to these items.

[Greg Kubasek]

Llyod, I noticed that too! I sometimes get orbs in pictures that I take of my collection. I'll remember to post some of them the next time they show up.

Greg

Did anyone else notice the Orb floating near the tunic in the first image?

Based on my experience with phenomena surrounding III.R items I feel that it is an original orb characteristic of those associated with the Panzerwaffe. Also, I do not believe it was added postwar but is original to the tunic.

Whoever acquired this lovely wrap at that bargain basement price has also gotten themselves a spirit to go with it ...maybe that was why it was so inexpensive to begin with.

All joking aside, it wouldnt be the first time I have heard of things like the above as it relates to these items.