Please Help ID unit on shoulder board

[DKNYC71]

Dear Forum Members,

This is a nice quality shoulder board on a private purchase NCO tunic. Is this a board fro the 491st Infantry regiment? Or some other unit? Any info on the unit?

Many Thanks in advance!
Dave.

[pauke]

number

On a white-piped shoulder strap the number would be for an infantry regiment.

[DKNYC71]

On a white-piped shoulder strap the number would be for an infantry regiment.

Thanks, I am aware of this, the reason for my inquiry is that I found no reference to a regular 491st Infantry regiment.

[Hans Kristian]

There were a penal infanterie abteilung numbered 491: http://www.axishistory.com/books/145...ts-of-the-heer

And more info from the forum here:

http://wehrmacht-awards.com/Forums/s....php?p=5891581

[Stepdale]

This is all I could find on Lexikon der Wehrmacht - looks like a battalion formed late in the war. Not sure if this makes sense for the tunic you have or not. http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...iten/IB491.htm

Dale

[Stepdale]

I think Hans beat me to it and the Waf thread he posted is most likely the correct one. Is the tunic shown in the thread the same as yours, the shoulderboard sure looks like the same one?
Dale

[DKNYC71]

I think Hans beat me to it and the Waf thread he posted is most likely the correct one. Is the tunic shown in the thread the same as yours, the shoulderboard sure looks like the same one?
Dale

Indeed it is, thanks! It is a wonderful untouched tunic.

So as I understand, this was a penal unit formed at the end of the war, yes?

[Waffenreich]

So I hate to throw the proverbial turd in the punchbowl here, but I'm not sold on the fact that this/these straps are original to the tunic.

Granted my opinion is based on one very non-revealing pic that lacks full context regarding the quality of the tunic and insignia, but what I see is a gabardine tunic, albeit tailor-made, with a low quality looking strap, and a sew job into the head seam that looks questionable. Based on my few years of handling tailor-made (and issue) tunics you generally see straps of a quality commensurate to that of the garment. This strap has some funky mossy green wool top with zink numbers. If the collar material matches the straps then, boom, you've got a winner, but, if it is bottle-green badge cloth then my suspicion is that these were added to what was probably a stripped PP tunic.

I'm not knocking your piece Dave, nor trying to derail the intent of your post regarding getting info on the unit, but when I see something like this (that turns out to be a Penal unit??) on a PP rock I think some deeper analysis may be warranted.

I'm bringing this up so that you can get to the bottom of what you have here rather than being led to believe you have something that it's not. If you are willing to post a few more pics of the tunic that would help. If you are satisfied with the answer you got and want to tell me to pound sand then that's cool too.

Best regards for 2017 and good hunting

vr

Bob

[Admiraal]

Can't tell if original, not my field of collecting, but don't forget this unit: http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...rsRgt491-R.htm
Infanterie-Ersatz-Regiment 491

[Stepdale]

Indeed it is, thanks! It is a wonderful untouched tunic.

So as I understand, this was a penal unit formed at the end of the war, yes?

I can't speak to the originality of the board, but I think the WAF thread with the tunic in it and what Rick said is correct - it's for the Infantry Ersatz (replacement/training) unit, not a penal unit.

[DonC]

My guess would be a replacement unit as well. I am assuming that the board is legitimate, of course.

Don

[Waffenreich]

More pics of the tunic would be beneficial.

[DKNYC71]

More pics of the tunic would be beneficial.

Thanks Bob for your input, no criticism or suspicion is ever bad.

The only image I made was of the board attempting to fully understated the type of unit this is. In the interest of time, here is a link with several images of the tunic: http://www.virtualgrenadier.com/sale_item.php?iid=2042 I personally see nothing wrong with the tunic in hand, Just a quality private purchase NCO, I have seen private purchase NCO and EM tunics from Luftwaffe, Heer, and WSS.

Cheers,
Dave.

[Waffenreich]

Thanks for the link Dave.

In looking at the tunic as a whole I see no issues now regarding the straps, except they are constructed using a different grade and color of wool as that used for the collar facing. This is not in itself a red flag, but somewhat unusual for a tailor-made garment as you would think the tailor would try to have consistency between the appearance of the collar and straps. Regarding the unit - I'm with those that say it's for the Ersatz unit.

Mike has a keen eye for details and I'm sure any abnormalities would have been pointed out in his description.

Other than the mismatch on the straps to the collar it's a crackin' looking tunic. I'd bet with a nice belt and visor cap it would make a fine display

Thanks again for posting the link.

vr

Bob

[DKNYC71]

Mike is the BEST as they come!