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    #1

    NCO HBT tunic and more...

    Hi guys
    here is a group of items belonged to Helmuth Schwalbach, a German NCO of Mannheim.
    He was aggregated to the 369 Infantry Division ( Croatian) as antitank instructor.
    This division was formed at Belgrade on May 1943 from 369 infantry regiment veterans and new Croatian volunteers and conscripts. This division fought against Tito. Unteroffizier Schwalbach was among the few survivors.

    We can see a very nice second pattern HBT tunic and first pattern trousers, his dog tag, two certificate of attribution for the first and second class KVK, the crosses and his badge for the Germans aggregated to the Croatian soldier.
























































    the awards certificates have been signed by General Fritz Niedholt, commander of the 369th Infantry Division (Croatian).
    Note that the certificate of the first class KVK has been written on a document for the second class, for shortage.
    It has been rectified with the typewriter by a "I" on the "2" character and preceded by the word "erster"
    Last edited by Zip3120; 11-06-2016, 06:10 AM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Looks like a superb group. Nice find. J

    Comment

      #3
      WOW

      Comment

        #4
        Very cool! Thanks for sharing !

        Comment

          #5
          Great grouping!

          Regards,

          Jan B.
          'Arzt und Soldat'

          Comment

            #6
            Just outstanding tunic Marco, but you already know what i think about this one.
            Original factory applied insignia, like the use and wear on it and quite a history too

            Just have to figure out how the jacket got the HBT PzGren straps ?

            caio
            Tim

            Comment

              #7
              Stunning! Easily the nicest HBT tunic I've seen.

              Comment

                #8
                Majestic hbt tunic with original factory applied insignia
                and awesome grouping.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Hi my friends
                  I am very happy for your enthusiastic comments and I thank you very much.

                  This tunic is really nice for its nice wear and fascinating history.

                  Now I have to pose to your attention a problem, but first I want to mention the wise words of alexandre in a past thread: "one more time, concerning german militaria, we have to learn again and again and to be reasonably open minded in some case."


                  The tunic, pants, awards and dog tag are also accompanied by a pair of HBT panzergrenadier boards, and they have exactly the same charm and wear of the tunic, NCO braid included.










                  what about this?

                  I think we can hypothesize three cases:

                  1) They are fakes
                  2) They are original LW boards
                  3) They are original Heere boards

                  In the first case I wonder why people should have decided to add straps evidently fakes to original pieces... to diminish their value?
                  Moreover why they decided to add green piped boards when the owner was been a panzerjäger? This case is implausible.

                  In the second case probably the owner privately bought them in green piping (RADAR units/Air traffic control) because before his transfer to the new unit he was a panzergrenadier. I know that some NCO/Officers did keep their old straps with the incorrect waffenfarbe when they went to a new unit.

                  In the third case he simply keeps his old straps when he went to a new unit.

                  I'd like to know your valued opinions, free from any bias, on this argument

                  Ciao

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Hi Marco

                    Ok here's my take. Its very interesting that the HBT straps were found with the grouping. Some collectors have said they are fake. Though well made and correctly too. Just never seen before. The backing is a concern to a some guys including me. The fact that they were declared bad by most in the thread is perhaps why no further comments are forthcoming ? if they are fake then they would have been added by the prior owner(s) cause they are HBT & match the tunic regardless of piping.

                    However Robert says "I got handfuls of green HBT boards in a direct veteran buy" so i would not just dismiss them either....

                    Certainly plausible that fake straps with the wrong piping were added to an original tunic to "enhance" its value, Perhaps in the beleif that the straps were good ? Fakers are not always that smart either.

                    Many solders kept their old straps when they were issued a new tunic even if the piping was incorrect for the new unit.

                    I would keep the straps on the tunic until proven false. Which has not yet been demonstrated.

                    Would like to hear other opinions ?

                    caio
                    Tim

                    p/s the old phrase "no vet bring back, or not been seen before" doesn't wash anymore as several items declared as such have turned out to be quite correct when additional examples have been found by collectors. Several tropical caps have been proven beyond the doubt that were declared bad cause there have not been any vet bring backs so lets drop that whole idea...
                    Last edited by Tim O'Keefe; 11-11-2016, 04:18 AM.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      What a great set! I love that tunic.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Hi friends, thanks for your replies.


                        Originally posted by Tim OK View Post
                        Hi Marco

                        Ok here's my take. Its very interesting that the HBT straps were found with the grouping. Some collectors have said they are fake. Though well made and correctly too. Just never seen before. The backing is a concern to a some guys including me. The fact that they were declared bad by most in the thread is perhaps why no further comments are forthcoming ? if they are fake then they would have been added by the prior owner(s) cause they are HBT & match the tunic regardless of piping.

                        However Robert says "I got handfuls of green HBT boards in a direct veteran buy" so i would not just dismiss them either....

                        Certainly plausible that fake straps with the wrong piping were added to an original tunic to "enhance" its value, Perhaps in the beleif that the straps were good ? Fakers are not always that smart either.

                        Many solders kept their old straps when they were issued a new tunic even if the piping was incorrect for the new unit.

                        I would keep the straps on the tunic until proven false. Which has not yet been demonstrated.

                        Would like to hear other opinions ?

                        caio
                        Tim

                        p/s the old phrase "no vet bring back, or not been seen before" doesn't wash anymore as several items declared as such have turned out to be quite correct when additional examples have been found by collectors. Several tropical caps have been proven beyond the doubt that were declared bad cause there have not been any vet bring backs so lets drop that whole idea...


                        Tim I absolutely agree with everything you said.

                        Marco

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Zip, you sent me a question about the boards but your mailbox is full. I will post my thoughts here-

                          I collect tunics and clothing and do not know that much about shoulder boards. That said- for his assignment with panzerabwehr he would normally have pink piped boards or less likely wear white which is what the rest of the regiment wore.

                          The photos are not that close of the boards and it is hard to say much about the details.

                          You should remember also that veterans often bought or received objects from relatives or other people after the war and put them with original wartime items. I saw this many times in Germany- the soldiers bought things after the War and added them with original items to make it confusing to look at groupings like this and after the veterans died people did not know what had been there or added etc. .

                          Comment

                            #14
                            I fully subscribe to both Johnny and Tims' latest posts.

                            Please bear in mind that (certainly in the later part of the war) correct Waffenfarbe was certainly not always adhered to with soldiers transferring units all the time; this would have been a impossible logistics task of course. Either they changed the color themselves or just kept the previous boards. I have seen several proof of that in originals.

                            And of course, most drillich tunics were simply worn with wool backed boards, it is a misassumption that the boards should be drillich as well.

                            That said, I am not a believer for these particular shoulder boards. Very easy to use original fabric in a reproduction; the value of a dozen straps would outbeat a torn up drillich tunic easily...

                            Very nice grouping!
                            Last edited by Zauberflöte; 11-16-2016, 04:25 AM.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Johnny R View Post
                              Zip, you sent me a question about the boards but your mailbox is full. I will post my thoughts here-

                              I collect tunics and clothing and do not know that much about shoulder boards. That said- for his assignment with panzerabwehr he would normally have pink piped boards or less likely wear white which is what the rest of the regiment wore.

                              The photos are not that close of the boards and it is hard to say much about the details.

                              You should remember also that veterans often bought or received objects from relatives or other people after the war and put them with original wartime items. I saw this many times in Germany- the soldiers bought things after the War and added them with original items to make it confusing to look at groupings like this and after the veterans died people did not know what had been there or added etc. .
                              Thanks for your reply Johnny
                              what you said is very interesting for me, this is an hypothesis which I had not thought.


                              Originally posted by Zauberflöte View Post

                              Please bear in mind that (certainly in the later part of the war) correct Waffenfarbe was certainly not always adhered to with soldiers transferring units all the time; this would have been a impossible logistics task of course. Either they changed the color themselves or just kept the previous boards. I have seen several proof of that in originals.

                              Thanks Zauberflöte
                              that you said is very plausible.


                              I think that this problem will be difficult to resolve.... I will try to find a correct pair of continental unteroffizer panzerabwehr straps and I will keep the HBT in a pocket of the tunic.


                              Marco
                              Last edited by Zip3120; 11-16-2016, 04:24 AM.

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