What is acceptable in uniform collecting

[Dan Plomish]

Hello all, I havent dabbled to much into uniforms yet in this hobby, but was wondering............ becuase ive read alot of posts about people adding rank chevrons and eagles ect... to tunics that were missing these pieces.

Now is this acceptable? If so how far can one go untill its not?

Im very scared to purchasse a nice uniform for these reasons, even alot of the big dealers list in there descriptions, so and so added on.

The only two tunics ive owned had the eagles both replaced, im assumeing post war, becuase at the end most soldiers would of De-Nazified themselfs? is this correct?

Anyhow I'd love to hear some comments on this and how far is to far!

thanks

Dan Plomish

[Jan B]

Hello all, I havent dabbled to much into uniforms yet in this hobby, but was wondering............ becuase ive read alot of posts about people adding rank chevrons and eagles ect... to tunics that were missing these pieces.

Now is this acceptable? If so how far can one go untill its not?

Im very scared to purchasse a nice uniform for these reasons, even alot of the big dealers list in there descriptions, so and so added on.

The only two tunics ive owned had the eagles both replaced, im assumeing post war, becuase at the end most soldiers would of De-Nazified themselfs? is this correct?

Anyhow I'd love to hear some comments on this and how far is to far!

thanks

Dan Plomish

Hi Dan

For me, a replaced breast-eagle (if original offcourse) is the limit, litzen or collar-patches must be original to the tunic. Slip-on shoulderstraps is almost impossible to verifie, so I keep that in the middle...buttons as well

I do believe that an untouched OR tunic can still be found. But when it comes to SS-tunics, or highly "decorated" tunics in general(armbands, shields, ribbon,etc)...I'm very sceptical. There was once a thread in the SS-section about this if I'm not mistaken.

IMHO Heer officer- and parade-tunics are the ones that have the most chance of being "untouched" as they often come directly from the relatives of the former owner or from (US)vets who took these as a souvenir during the war.

Cheers

Jan

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Dan, my thoughts are pretty much the same as Jan's. I can live with a replaced breast eagle if need be but that really is it.

I would not want any tunic that has been upgraded with more awards loops or higher rank insignia etc.

Cheers, Ade.

[Patrick Dempsey]

Hi Dan,

well, this will be a question that most uniform collectors will have to face at some point.

Some collectors will treat the re-application of removed insignia as nothing less than heresy and would not touch an item that had been restored.

Others tend to view it as an occasional necessary evil.

For me what would be construed as acceptable would be the reapplication of a breast eagle, or rank chevron, but not a wholesale reapplication of everything.

As long as there was clear evidence of them being present in the past.

Like Jan i don't like the idea of replaced litzen for some reason.

If you are thinking of adding more (such as trade qualification badges, cuff titles etc) i would simply say "don't".
You are then entering the realm of falsification, and any intrinsic historical value the tunic had is lost forever......

I have one tunic with a replaced eagle (not done by me) and that is as far as i would go.


Patrick.

[Bootmanager]

look on my soldiers Lametta ( No Uniform)

Whom jacket and eagle of OK ONE. Where is the problem? Problems had the wife or parents - at home with the 2 uniform. Which a smashing of furniture.... e.c.

[Dan Plomish]

thanks

Thanks for all these great answers.

Im in know means thinking of replaceing or adding anything myself but would one day like to purchasse a nice uniform, and dont want anything touched with.

I personnaly hate when people mess with original items, no matter what they are, even switching parts around on daggers like replaceing cracked grips and what not, Id rather have a moth eaten tunic with tabs pulled off, then a completely reworked officers coat. because I could sleap at night knowing its orriginal, Theres nothing worse then always wondering about an item.

I thank you guys very much for all the great responses, and im sure when the time comes ill be contacting you all on my buy.

Dan Plomish

[CollectRussia]

Its really a matter of money. An untouched uniform will command a higher price than a restored equivalent of course. If you know exactly what you are getting, anything is acceptable as long as the price is right.

The problem comes when a) something has been deliberately misrepresented or obscured by the seller or b) you are the owner and are considering restoration.

If b) as stated above, replacing something that was originally there is accepted only if the worksmanship is compitent and the replacement part is itself an original in matching in condition.

Replacing something poorly, replacing with a reproduction, or adding something that wasn't originally there is a no-no. Restoration must be pointed out to buyers or anybody studying the piece.

[Dave Suter]

To me, it's real simple. 'Restoring' is fine (as long as the facts are disclosed if/when selling the piece). 'De-Nazification' is a fact of life in this hobby.

Adding other things, such as increasing the rank, adding unit numbers or specialty patches that weren't there is 'humping' - and selling it as original is

There are, of course, grey areas. For instance, many times a tunic will have had the badge loops removed. On un-named pieces I sometimes add temporary loops to hang a badge off of, but I don't try and replicate the originals - they are obvious and, if/when I ever sell the piece, they will be removed.

[derspiess63]

I like my pieces to be 101% original with nothing added/removed/replaced!I could live with shoe strings,buttons,belt hooks and the odd chinstrap but I couldn't feel comfortable with replaced eagles and litzen or cap insigna !As Sarge pointed out, "Denazification" is a fact of life in our hobby but I more than willingly pass on denazified pieces,thank you !
Manny

[TONY Q.W.]

Cause in my everyday life I am an "anti"-conformist, when it comes to german militaria collecting I don't set any rules either. If I see a tunic that talks to me - this is - that it has "personality" I don't mind if it has an eagle or litzen replaced (of course as long as everything is original). I have tunics and caps that are stripped from any insignia. I love them as much as my untouched tunics and caps. I collect for pleasure and history and not for investment. I love salty tunics and yes I admitt I don't mind moth bites in them. On the other hand I don't mind MINT items either!!

P.S Please note that this is my opinion and only my opinion...I FULLY respect and LOVE collections that I see in this forum with different characteristics than mine. Every body is different and I fully respect that!!

[phild]

I agree with Tony. I've owned a couple of hundred tunics over the last 30 years and examined many times that number. One conclusion that I have drawn is that in many cases there is no way that anyone can tell with any degree of certainty if a given item of insignia is period attached or not. Other times it is obvious and more often it is simply just a matter of opinion, which will tend to differ depending on if you are the buyer or the seller!
This has nothing to do with being a "purist" collector (defined by me as an "ego driven snob with an inflated opinion of thier expertise and with a tendency to mainly identify their own self worth by elevating their aquistions as superior to all others") or insisting on originality, but rather simply being pragmatic in dealing with material that was made for utilitarian use instead of for the collector as say would be the case with proof manufactured coin sets or commemorative firearms.
If anyone is wondering what the basis of my second statement is, I can tell you that I have had a number of items that came from conditions that would have made it virtually impossible for the insignia to have been tampered with (a German widow's clothes chest from a Husband who was KIA in 1941, for one example) and have seen this insignia attachment attacked. On the other hand I have seen with second person knowledge (admission by the restorer) of re-attached insignia accepted by reconized authorities as period sewn.
My advise is to back up and get a healthy perspective on what you are about to buy. Develop your own skills in evaluating items and rely less on other's opinions. When you do receive other's opinions insist that they specify what the basis of their conclusion is and see if it holds up to your experience. I think that you will start being surprised in many cases how much you really know.

[derspiess63]

I agree with Tony. I've owned a couple of hundred tunics over the last 30 years and examined many times that number. One conclusion that I have drawn is that in many cases there is no way that anyone can tell with any degree of certainty if a given item of insignia is period attached or not. Other times it is obvious and more often it is simply just a matter of opinion, which will tend to differ depending on if you are the buyer or the seller!
This has nothing to do with being a "purist" collector (defined by me as an "ego driven snob with an inflated opinion of thier expertise and with a tendency to mainly identify their own self worth by elevating their aquistions as superior to all others") or insisting on originality, but rather simply being pragmatic in dealing with material that was made for utilitarian use instead of for the collector as say would be the case with proof manufactured coin sets or commemorative firearms.
If anyone is wondering what the basis of my second statement is, I can tell you that I have had a number of items that came from conditions that would have made it virtually impossible for the insignia to have been tampered with (a German widow's clothes chest from a Husband who was KIA in 1941, for one example) and have seen this insignia attachment attacked. On the other hand I have seen with second person knowledge (admission by the restorer) of re-attached insignia accepted by reconized authorities as period sewn.
My advise is to back up and get a healthy perspective on what you are about to buy. Develop your own skills in evaluating items and rely less on other's opinions. When you do receive other's opinions insist that they specify what the basis of their conclusion is and see if it holds up to your experience. I think that you will start being surprised in many cases how much you really know.

Sorry to tell you Phil, but with all the due respect towards you and your experience the points you have made may lead to a safe conclusion or to a good nothing!
To an advanced collector who collects and doesn' deal and/or struggle to have his pieces shown in this or that book only to have their value increased(THESE are the trusted authorities my buddies and I usually laugh about),there's nearly always a way to scertain whether something is originally sewn,nailed,riveted,glued,stitched or welded.
I cannot understand what you did mean by "insigna attachment attacked" but a tunic coming from such an environment(your tunic I mean!) is likely to have its insigna originally sewn on!I've got an M35 and an M40 whose eagles have been period hand-applied, and there's more than a way to scertain that apart from the fact that the two of them come from the soldier's families too!
Ditto for tunics with machine-sewn insigna!
You see Phil, the fact that a collector(no allegations to you at all !)has been collecting for the past 565545 years doesn't necessarily mean that he's better informed and more descerning than our own Junior if he never knew where or what to look at for the all this time!
[QUOTE]Develop your own skills in evaluating items and rely less on other's opinions. When you do receive other's opinions insist that they specify what the basis of their conclusion is and see if it holds up to your experience. I think that you will start being surprised in many cases how much you really know/ I'm 232% with you on this one!
Respectfully
Manuel

[CollectRussia]

being a "purist" collector (defined by me as an "ego driven snob with an inflated opinion of thier expertise and with a tendency to mainly identify their own self worth by elevating their aquistions as superior to all others")

Well that certainly sounds familiar.

[phild]

Manuel, I could not agree with you more. I too believe that there are ways to determine if things have been tampered with in most cases if one knows wht they are looking at and looking for. I think that both of our points are that in many cases they don't and this lack of knowledge is not determined soley by how "big" any particular collector or dealer is perceived, but rather by learned observation and judgement.

I also have to say that in the cases of areas like a button re-sewn or say a tank destruction strip, if it is done with old thread, it really is subjective to say if it was done in 1944 or 1994 as items did not neccessarily get a lot of additional wear after such an addition was made during the war, thus taking wear to the thread out of the equation of evaluation...not to that this can not be faked as well!

Please don't think that I am saying "antything goes" in regards to tunic insignia attachment. I am saying that I have heard a tremdous amount of incorrect rules, mostly at shows, on what is right and what is wrong.

[J Howland]

In the early 1970's, while visiting a friend of mine who was a senior invesitagor with (and bomb expert for) the New York State police, I was taken to the office of a really "big time" militaria dealer in upstate New York. At the time, I was actively collecting daggers and I was looking to see what I might be able to pick up.

On a table in the dealer's workroom/office were several large bundles of WW II German uniforms - some civil, most military - that "pickers" had found for him, primarily in europe. Along the wall he had a large metal chest (probably from a naval vessel of some sort) that had very big, square drawers. Each drawer was stuffed full to its brim with specific types of German insignia: eagles, shoulder boards, you name it.

As my police friend chatted with him and I looked at daggers, the dealer would pull a stripped uniform from a bundle, study it and then go to the cabinet to pull out the insignia that he thought would best complete it. Once he made his selection, he moved the "set" aside and selected another stripped tunic to start the process all over again. This happened several times during my visit.

Even though the stripped tunics were almost certainly genuine and the insignia the dealer was using to "restore" them was, too - most of the insignia he had was still tied up and tagged in little bundles as I recall - it left me with the feeling that I probably shouldn't trust my eyes anymore when it came to Third Reich uniforms...

Jim

At about the same time (1974-75), I asked a curator at West Point if I could take a closer look at how a cuff title was attached to a dot pattern WSS jacket in an exhibit case. The curator said that it wouldn't teach me a thing - the "Hitlerjugend" title in the D-Day exhibit was held on by pins! They needed a specific type of uniform for the exhibit, didn't have it, so they married up a loose cuff title with a insignia-less jacket that they already owned...